hckrnws

Tiktok became a bigger national security risk after being sold than it was before.

All Americans are probably better off using Chinese apps that the Chinese government uses to snoop on them and Chinese are better off using American apps that the American govt uses to snoop on them than the opposite.

The impact the Chinese government can have on an individual American is minor compared to the US govt and the same goes for the American and Chinese govts on the average Chinese person.

Yep, and they won't work with each other, and thus provides a modicum of data safety due to opposing governments.

The real challenge to this is that most Chinese apps aren't in English.

> The impact the Chinese government can have on an individual American is minor compared to the US govt

ICE are fighting hard to change this.

How so? ICE is part of the American government.

Thanks - I’ve misread the comment as stating that the Chinese government had more power over its citizens than the US had over US citizen.

> The impact the Chinese government can have on an individual American is minor

I agree with this completely but I think we all need to avoid the idea that the danger of mass surveillance plays out at the personal level.

The Chinese government can do basically nothing with your individual personal data but if they have the personal data of tens millions of individuals then it suddenly becomes way easier to do things like influencing elections.

I am no more/less concerned about China influencing elections than Fox News.

I was responding to the assertion that you should worry less about China.

i been saying this

...Highly disagree. China can (and has) manipulate the hearts and minds of the American public—skewing their biases in a way that creates internal chaos and dissent, disrupting institutional order, and sewing distrust of thy neighbor. They've been doing this for at least a decade now, and have played a silent hand in reshaping American politics. If (when) a conflict arises, trust that they will use this tool to manipulate the electorate in a way that benefits them in a zero sum way.

>China can (and has) manipulate the hearts and minds of the American public—skewing their biases in a way that creates internal chaos and dissent, disrupting institutional order, and sewing distrust of thy neighbor

Nothing a tin-foil hat can't prevent

As if the public needed any manipulation. You can just read what actual public figures, journalists, and such have been openly saying for the last 15-20 years...

When a long-time political player, wife of a President, and presidential candidate calls a big chunk of the population "deplorables", when opposing candidates call for the jailing or even shooting of their opponent, or when the current President is saying what he says and doing what he does, you need more to get "chaos" and "distrust of the neighbor"?

No tin-foil hat needed. There is published research documenting that this is happening [0] on certain topics and there is a lot of reason to believe it is happening in others. Yes, I'm not saying China is the only source of the state of our domestic discontent; but it's fuel to the fire and will be used against us at times in the future when we need national cohesion. See also [1] a 60 minutes episode on a related thread of China infiltrating the US in other ways.

[0] https://networkcontagion.us/wp-content/uploads/NCRI-Report_-...

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43vxbytjDSM&themeRefresh=1

A Tin Dome which might actually work.

Two things can be true at the same time. It's not just China. Russia does it. So does Israel, many countries, as well as many institutions in the US, both public and private.

It's no secret they do this, they openly discuss it. The things they want can differ but they want to convince you of things. That's obvious.

What makes the game easy for political adversaries (both foreign and domestic) is they don't need to convince the public of a certain thing, they just drive contention. What many people call "engagement". You can see this in 2016 with Russia doing things like forming Facebook groups to spur on protests along with groups to organize counter protests to the protest they helped create. They're not trying to make you pro Russia or pro communist so much as just cause America to be chaotic, ensuring people care less when they do things like invade Ukraine. You also see it in the current administration which, developing the belief in a deep state and saying crazy things left and right so that nothing is to be believed and you're constantly distracted. While we're all talking about Greenland we're not talking about Epstein. Every week it's something new. Even Bannon discussed this strategy early on: throw a million things at them and they'll only be able to focus on a few. It's no surprise this creates chaos and confusion. We argue about the things not being discussed as if it's hidden information rather than logistic overload but there's also not a meaningful difference

The point isn't to convince you, it's to make you exhausted and apathetic

Damn, imagine if an Australian or a South African billionaire did that with big media companies, oh well, that's just a weird thought, nothing to take from that.

What conflict? If there is a conflict the whole world is fucked. I've only ever heard about conflicts from the Americans

> skewing their biases in a way that creates internal chaos and dissent, disrupting institutional order, and sewing distrust of thy neighbor.

I don't really have respect for this idea; we do this to ourselves far more effectively than people who frankly have a pretty hamfisted cultural understanding- just as we have of china or russia.

IMO influence over real concrete choices is much more alarming. Someone with household-level information has an insane amount of advantage in an election. You can target politcal messaging street by street to play up the worst aspects of your opposed candidate and the least repulsive aspects of your own candidate.

But if you're in china, the most you can do is try to push towards whatever of the two candidates is least bad for you. And spoiler, zero american politicians are pro-china.

This is the difficulty with propaganda- you have to tailor it to a foreign audience but then the message is changed.

America has been trying to spread it's way of life for a hundred years. People liked the fridges and cars but never cared much for the Christianity and croony capitalism.

> And spoiler, zero american politicians are pro-china.

..Other than, well possibly, Trump. Maybe not directly, but the Tiktok deal, withdrawing from the TPP, the eventual outcome of the trade war, the praise for Xi—all stands to benefit China at the expense of the US.

> I don't really have respect for this idea; we do this to ourselves far more effectively than people who frankly have a pretty hamfisted cultural understanding- just as we have of china or russia.

The two need not be mutually exclusive.

LOL!

Outside competition allows progress because we have been shown time and time again that the US will just not solve its problems without outside pressure. I'd also argue that any other country in its position would act the same. For example when the USSR was actively competing with the US, they could easily lob a major criticism of the US in capturing 'hearts and minds' of other nations: "Look at how they treat their minorities. Do you really want to work with those people?"

Yes there were very active causes and groups in the US to correct this issue, but that outside pressure forced leadership to be nudged towards corrective action and I wonder if the USSR hadn't been there would we have gotten Civil Rights legislation passed when we did?

Maybe the same will happen with China showing the US how fast they can get stuff done and what they provide as benefits to their citizens vs a declining US. Already TikTok has helped Gen-Z realize how Israel gets so many benefits (universal healthcare, college tuition, benefits for birthing kids etc.) while the US is in massive debt and continues to send money to Israel. That continued propaganda may lead to an eventual backlash and subsequent reform.

US aid to Israel is about 0.05% of the federal budget, and around 3% of Israel’s state budget. That’s nowhere near enough to fund healthcare in either country.

I never said it did but the point is that it is money that does not need to go there when we are trillions in debt already. For years whenever any thought of providing some relief to the middle class in the US is brought up, the response is always "How are you going to pay for that?". How come that question is never asked for outlays to israel but only when it involves the American people?

Depends if you see more of a threat coming from China or Israel.

100% Israel. China couldn't save tiktok but when tiktokers started criticizing Israel's actions in Gaza Israel got tiktok transferred to a zionist lighting quick with support from both American political parties and no 1st amendment concerns.

Its been a while now and I've wondered if anyone has recorded any hard data in how the acquisitions has shifted the platform. I just hope that someone is collecting hard records so we can see the damage after everything has played out over time.

As far as I can tell at least among the American left, criticism of israel has become so commonplace and part of the culture that its become a "memeable" event at this point.

I wonder how the Israel lobby will manage to turn that ship around at this point?

>I wonder how the Israel lobby will manage to turn that ship around at this point?

The effect of popular criticism of Israel in the US has been the normalization of mass censorship and deportation, and nil on Israeli policy or American support for it (other than being the catalyst for killing Kamala Harris' campaign.) The ship doesn't need to be turned around, it continues on its course unabated.

Last I heard Trump intends to pave Gaza over and sell the land for data centers to the Saudis.

Thats a short term solution to stop criticism that has essentially put more fuel on the fire. Millenials are start to take the reigns and I don't see a strong pro-Israel coalition among their cohort yet. They are likely being groomed but I dont think it will be a clear transition. Anti-Israel candidates are making moves and occasionally willing seats. If this accelerates they will play an important role in the future of American politics.

>Last I heard Trump intends to pave Gaza over and sell the land for data centers to the Saudis.

Honestly anything is possible. Maybe they will continue unabated and finish their project before Trump kicks the can. Maybe this upcoming Iran 'adventure' will be a massive disaster and will lead to a step change in hatred of Israel and anyone who supports them. I just dont see any of the old propaganda used in Iraq working this time around.

Maybe Israel completes their complete expulsion of Palestinians and then forms a solid base as the center of the middle east with everyone else being a vassal state. Would they even need the US at that point?

All these big socials are horrible brain rotting addiction machines no matter who owns them.

CBS news is effectively state media after the Ellison acquisition and Weiss hire. TikTok's US operation won't be any different and rolling HBO/Time Warner/CNN et al into this will be even worse.

Not even state media foreign state media.

[flagged]

Anecdotally I noticed a big uptick in pro-Trump content in Europe recently. Was flooded with anti-Jack Smith clips in the last couple of days, for example. Also seeing a lot of anti-immigration, far-right content.

https://archive.is/fs4Nl

Is there any way to use the international version of TikTok in the US?

VPN?

For anyone confused, this only affects US users who's data is now handled by the new US entity.

> TikTok USDS Joint Venture LLC

First instinct is USDS stands for usds.gov and it literally turned into nationalized social media. Upon further research USDS is apparently short for U.S. Data Security. WTF is with this naming. Imagine TikTok DHS (Digital High School) JV.

To be more precise: TikTok in the US is now collecting more data about its users.

TikTok across Europe and Asia is still run by TikTok Pte Ltd, the ByteDance subsidiary in Singapore, under the old EULA.

Is this why the location suggestions on my posts used to be so wildly inaccurate? Because they weren't collecting precise location?

Wired is inappropriately US-centric. This is "TikTok US", not TikTok.

the solution to this is very obvious, but I know some folks won't cease using the product.

It's sort've cliche at this point but we got the worst of both Orwell and Huxley in that our super-invasive surveillance apparatus is also a super-addictive apparatus designed to hit all our evolutionary buttons like a slot machine.

It is deeply sad to me that "stop doing the thing that's hurting you" is met with such animosity. It's like heroin addicts telling us with a straight face that they refuse to stop.

Maybe because it isn't particularly insightful or helpful. If you told a heroin addict this, would you expect them to be like "Oh MAN why didn't I think of that?"

But that has nothing to do with the reality that the best response is to stop doing heroin. Someone refusing to help themselves does not change that.

>But that has nothing to do with the reality that the best response is to stop doing heroin.

This is inaccurate. The best response is medically supervised detoxification. Stopping heroin without medical supervision can cause severe dehydration, electrolyte imbalance, cardiovascular issues and aspiration pneumonia. To say nothing of the likelihood of relapse overdose.

You should never, ever tell a person addicted to heroin to "just stop doing heroin" (or, to be more charitable to the original claim, "just" tell them to "stop doing heroin") and them continuing do heroin is not the same as "refusing to help themselves."

We're talking about social media, not literally heroin. Heroin is physically addictive and you can die by going cold turkey. That's not true for social media.

Pedantic answers like this are just depressing. For fuck’s sake, TikTok and Facebook are not heroin - just focus on that.

TikTok the first thing they do before having a thought of their own in the morning, and the last thing before falling asleep in bed, and all day long as well. At least heroin you run out and have to leave the house at some point. People judge you so you can't be doing heroin in public, meanwhile everyone and their mom is glued to their phone these days. You're right, it's not heroin. It's worse.

Heroin's harms are mostly from the fact that it's illegal. Legalize it, make it cost a dollar for a week's worth of it, and the harms we see go away (to be replaced by other problems). Junkies mostly just want more heroin. Meanwhile, everyone's mainlining TikTok to all abandon right out in public, and no one bats an eye. People are losing jobs because they can't get off TikTok but because you can't film them and conclude they got fired from work because of it, it doesn't get the same kind of media attention.

> You're right, it's not heroin. It's worse.

Stop spreading this nonsense. You clearly don't have any idea what heroin addiction is.

The best response is to stop doing heroin over time, but that doesn't mean the best method for them doing that is saying "heroin is bad for you".

Millions of people have been addicted to heroin and got off it. And I'm fairly sure about 0 of the people who got off it did so when one kind soul came up to them and said "you should stop doing heroin it's bad for you"

Blaming a heroin addict for not quitting heroin is not constructive. It's addictive. That's how it works. It induces chemical dependency. You wouldn't blame a gunshot victim for bleeding all over the table cloth due to the laws of fluid dynamics.

Blame is not usually constructive. However, linking cause and effect can be. If a gunshot victim pointed the gun at themselves and pulled the trigger, I'm unsure how telling them they should not do that is blaming them.

[dead]

I can quit whenever I want.

not sure how old you are but have you ever try to say this to another human being? :)

>It's like heroin addicts telling us with a straight face that they refuse to stop.

That’s how addiction works

> the solution to this is very obvious, but I know some folks won't cease using the product

"Everyone should simultaneously quit doing the harmful thing" is a "solution" to our present surveillance advertising problem in the way that advice to save money is a solution to poverty or "have you tried farming?" is a solution to world hunger.

I.e. not a solution for humans, but a description of a beeline to the desired state as performed by a hive mind.

I didn't say it was easy, but also I don't think uninstalling tik-tok is as difficult as solving global poverty. It's obviously designed to be addictive but it's also not on the level of a chemical dependency for 90% of the population. Like, yeah, some folks probably need medical intervention but most social media users could give up on the dank maymays with only mild difficulty.

Really? Telling people to quit using a stupid app isn't "A solution for humans"? Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Could you be any more patronizing? Maybe there's a few people you haven't alienated yet.

I don't like or use Tiktok, but clearly it provides some value to the people who do. Telling people to stop using it without even attempting to address what benefit (perceived or actual) it provides is self-defeating advice.

We can’t say these apps are addicting/weaponized against us and also say “just stop using it” like it’s some easy choice one simply has to make.

What is the solution? You imply that it is just to quit using it, but then you mention how super-addictive social media and especially TikTok is. Which it is, by design, by very smart people who very intentionally exploit every aspect of human psychology they can, for profit. I don't blame the victims of social media, I blame the architects of it. To me it's clear that social media does more harm than good, and is only useful to generate ad revenue, which to me is also clearly more harm than good, and should all be nuked from orbit.

The solution is simple, go interact with actual humans and make an actual bond. Hanging out with good friends feels way better than any social media I've ever used and I've been online shitposting since 1995.

Just this morning I tagged along to an activity a friend of mine has been doing a few weeks, and had some nice conversations with people I've never met before.

Humanity, in person, in the context of common interests, is fulfilling for the soul.

How do you do that? You've stated a goal, but not a mechanism to get there.

Are you asking how you hang out with friends?

I mean this in all seriousness... you talk to them. Don't wait for them to ask you, you ask them.

Or are you asking how you make friends?

That one's harder but I'll point out something important. You notice how you made friends in school? The reality of it is that you just spent time around the same people constantly. That's the biggest driver. Bigger than any shared belief, politics, or whatever. Join a club. Go to the gym. Spend time outside your home in public in the same location at approximately the same times. You'll meet people who also spend time outside their homes in the same locations at the same times. Repeat this until you gave gained friends.

Just use another platform if you can't quit cold-turkey.

But yeah, the solution is to not let them collect data about you.

Which one — YouTube shorts?

Social media is addictive, but Hacker News overplays how addictive it is.

Most of what keeps people on it isn't heroin-like dependence but convenience and habit.

Convenience of what? What goal is achieved most efficiently by using social media?

People use social media to consume news and entertainment and to curate and communicate with people and accounts using an interface that allows them to read and share multiple media types.

My mother used it to communicate with her COPD support group and chat with in-laws in Australia. I use it to follow up on work groups and authors and developers I'm interested in. Most people's usage of social media is banal and mundane, little different than watching television in the 1990s. They use social media because it provides value for them, not because they're addicted to dopamine.

i think you have a very idealised view of social media. have you been to a classroom recently?

it’s also meaningfully different in structure from tv. tv was 7-10 min of content and a couple of ads in between. and you grew annoyed by the ads. only toddlers were captivated. now most content is designed like ads were. and now they grow annoyed when outside it. and toddlers and older people are captivated.

No, but most people who use social media aren't schoolchildren. I have a niece and nephew who are school age and they seem to be doing fine. Certainly better than people here insist they must.

And I don't think believing social media provides some practical value for people beyond addiction is "very idealized."

edit: I remember a very different past than you do. People of all ages watched tv for hours at a time, everyone was captivated. Saturday morning cartoons (all of which were toy commercials) were a mandatory childhood ritual. And the ads when popular were often the memes of their time. Different in structure but not much different in influence.

We call that mental addiction.

Remember when part of the argument to force a TikTok sale was protecting American's private data? Honestly, if I had to hand my personal data over to someone, I much rather give it to the nebulous "China" that people always fearmonger about than an American billionaire aligned with the current administration because the latter is much more likely to have avenues to use that data against me.

„Hey, while we have the data - why not pipe it directly to ICE? Palantir might use it as well.“

All for the sake of "security & safety", I‘d assume.

I don’t know if you’re joking, but that’s pretty clearly exactly what they’re going to do. Take a look at the new terms of service. They released this morning, this whole app has just been weaponized against political and dissidents.

I was joking. I did not know this. That is horrible. I hope at some point the American people find the courage to fight for their democracy.

How much more data is even left to collect lol

Everything that would assist a Kavanaugh Stop

Well, precise location data for one.

we’ve had this for decade+

No, they haven’t. Read the article.

I was processing “precise location data” a decade ago at work - nothing to do with the article at all. the OP comment was made as general “what is there left” and it ain’t precise location data

> I was processing “precise location data” a decade ago at work

Were you working at TikTok? If not, I don’t see the relevance.

The TikTok app didn’t used to demand precise location data. Now it does. That’s a difference.

Social Media is evil. Don't participate.

Hacker News is Social Media

HN (and Reddit) are not social media, they are forums. Social media are platforms where the main purpose is to socialise. Forums are platforms where the main purpose is to discuss the topic of any given thread. Just because you can talk to someone, doesn't make it social media. I will die on this hill.

Fully agree. And more than that, I think you're objectively correct.

Think about the evolution of the term "social media". It evolved from social networks, which themselves evolved from forums.

The "media" in "social media" refers to third-party content that is algorithmically boosted through social signals, with signals from your own network weighting higher, and in the end creating a personalized algorithm of media content.

There is no personalized media on HN. It's the same feed for everyone. There is no network on HN. No friends, follows, private messages.

So there's no social to HN, and no (personalized) media, and no network.

Fully agree. Forums predate social media and are some of the oldest parts of the internet. And it's not quite socializing... it's more like, are you broadcasting and consuming content? Or discussing it?

The moment you insert algorithmic curation it stops being “just” a forum IMO. The moment you add gamification on top (karma points, likes, rewards) it stops being just a forum.

Reddit is definitely not a forum the same way old-school forums were forums. And I don’t believe you can, with a straight face, say that they’re the same.

Also, “Forums are platforms where the main purpose is to discuss the topic of any given thread”. That’s a very broad definition. Depending on how loose you want to enforce that you can convince me that Twitter and YouTube are forums.

Plus, “discuss the topic of any given thread” you say this in a thread about TikTok collecting more data while you’re clearly talking about something unrelated to that.

These definitions are blurry. If I told you “we should set up a forum” you’d not instinctively think we’re creating Reddit, and for good reasons.

But I’ll agree that HN is probably the more forum than social media if we were to place it on a scale. And that’s how these platforms should be judged imo: on a scale.

I remember a time when Reddit didn’t exist. When phpBB and vBulletin were the hottest ways to build a community around a theme. I remember when they would get so large that you would need volunteers to help moderate.

Now, karma and all that came from a way of making it so that the admins of this site have to do less moderation and let the best participants of this site have that power. It’s ultimate democracy.

Democracy is extremely vulnerable to manipulation, especially if you don't verify identity.

Except karma is tracked by your user…? I fail to see where you’re going with this. I’m not talking about political elections.

How much does it cost to create a user?

In the case of online voting, you can’t buy one. In order to create one, one would tie it to the existing identification systems they have (for example, ssa.gov).

Then your argument will be “what’s stopping someone from using someone else’s identity?” in which case we have laws for that. I don’t have all the answers but we can definitely do better.

Modern reddit behaves like social media unless you limit yourself to very niche insular subreddits that do not reach r/all.

Overall the site has become social media. Any sub that reaches critical mass gets absorbed into the slop hivemind. Browsing r/all is almost indistinguishable from browsing public facebook posts nowadays. Just loads and loads of bot slop catch-all subreddits like r/interestingasfuck or r/woahthatscool and drama subreddits like r/amioverracting. My filter list is over 100 subs long at this point.

When i log on to an actual classic forum like tacomaforum.com the difference is stark.

HN and Reddit aren’t traditional forums because of the way downvotes and upvotes work. I would consider a forum to be defined by the most recent activity bringing the thread to the top of the list, not a popularity contest via upvote and downvote.

I also think HN has become too general purpose to be similar in spirit to most forums. Being seen on HN has major dollar value just like trending on Reddit does.

Also, have you used Reddit recently?

Open up Reddit on the app. No using old.reddit.com, doesn’t count. That’s not the experience most users are using.

Go to the watch section. I think you swipe left or right or something? I forget, I deleted the app.

Bam, it’s TikTok.

It is not. It is not personalized based on your social circle or activity.

Barely.

It's like saying "don't do drugs" (thinking of heroin, meth, coke and that sort) and someone else says "caffeine is a drug too".

More like "alcohol is a drug".

Are we really taking the position that alcohol precipitated crimes are not a thing? If you take that position it's because DV and drunk driving are so normalized in this country that you don't even consider them heinous anymore. SAS, but understandable

My point is that HN is, in fact, social media.

HN may be more normalized, in the way that alcohol is more normal than meth in my circles. And folks my find HN to be more "useful", in the sense that I find being able to have a drink and socialize useful but don't feel the same way about casual adderall usage.

Unlike caffeine, however, (and this is the point I am responding to), I don't think that the HN is any -less- social media.

Caffeine is indeed a drug but has relatively (to alcohol) minor effects, especially looking at the longer-term differences- that's the point of the parent post.

I think that, like most of the social drinkers I know, the users of HN don't feel like there's anything abusive about how they are using it. I also see folks who are definitely getting their social media fix off the site.

and alcohol is worse for you than several illegal drugs

[flagged]

[flagged]

People are clearly criticizing it.

The theoretical difference is that the people can push their govt to restrict what data the American version of TikTok collects and what it does.

Unfortunately it’s looking likely this difference will remain theoretical.

[flagged]

I played with TikTok for a week or so. Every time I opened it, it was suggesting feeds featuring clearly mentally impaired people with large audiences throwing money at them for saying their name. It felt like a very concerted effort to dumb down the American population. You wouldn’t listen to these people for 10 seconds out in public. The fetal alcohol syndrome phenotype was widespread. The entire experience was disturbing, to be honest.

I'm not a fan either (and don't bother with it) but TikTok and co try to prey on your ... sorry try to show you stuff that they think you want to see, indexed on advert spend and a few other factors that will maximise advert spend return. That is their entire raison d'etre.

So, why on earth are they displaying stuff that you say is disturbing? There is no profit in that and TikTok is all about profit, ideally from abroad, ie market share.

I'm sure that the American population is incapable of being dumbed down any further.

Log a bug.

Maybe it's just you. To me it shows totally different stuff, equally stupid, by default (e.g. if I go with a new account), but easily changeable with very little targeted watching (it picks your interests quite fast)

The fairly accurate joke is that the algorithm is really just telling on yourself.

> it was suggesting feeds featuring clearly mentally impaired people with large audiences throwing money at them for saying their name

I've never seen that. I saw D&D content and discussions about gamedev. The feed is what you make of it, and TikTok's very famous algorithm shows you what you signal you will watch.

Feel free to disagree, and maybe you are the very rare exception, but you watched that stuff for a week or so, and I have no idea what you are referring to.

I mean, I mostly see folks painting warhammer minifigs and bipoc communists.

I suspect that feed is mostly what I look for and enjoy about it.