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It's interesting to see how chatgpt is becoming more and more of a starting point of the web exploration, at which they're like, why even bother searching at this point, we'll just have default workflows for maps, buy (integration of stripe already marks it), booking airlines etc, which covers so much basic stuff people would do anyways.

The biggest bottleneck for this for the past two years imo wasn't the models, but the engineering and infra around it, and the willingness of companies to work with openaio directly. Now that they've grown and have a decent userbase, companies are much more willing to pay/or involve themselves in these efforts.

This has eventual implications outside user-heavy internet use (once we see more things built on the SDK), where we're gonna see a fork in the web traffic of human centric workflows through chat, and an seo-filled, chat/agent-optimized web that is only catered to agents. (crossposted)

I’m not sure how many people there are like me outside of this website but there’s not a single bone in my body that wants to use AI for these things.

Buying plane tickets for example. It’s not even that I don’t trust the AI or that I’m afraid it might make a mistake. I just inherently want to feel like I’m in control of these processes.

It’s the same reason I’m more afraid of flying than driving despite flying being a way safer mode of travel. When I’m flying I don’t feel like I’m in control.

I have very normie and not-so-normie friends that ask ChatGPT almost anything. My parents consistently make use of it, and they're almost 70, and not that tech-literate. There was a fun release from Anthropic about the type of queries that they're receiving, and code-gen is minority. I think we're, once again, not the average user.

I wonder how many of those “average users” will actually happily pay what the true cost is though? Are they really getting perceivable value for it or is it just more convenient than present day Google.

They all pay the price of google (micro-brainwashing by ads to buy things they don't need).

I think the average person will happily pay the same price to OpenAI (being micro-brainwashed by the AI to buy things they don't need, i.e. ads). I feel confident OpenAI will be able to charge even more for ads than Google since OpenAI will be able to influence people even more strongly, and hide the ads even better.

But OpenAI's costs are exponentially higher than Google's (even taking into account the various Google freebies they don't charge for).

Google wasn’t always profitable.

But they weren't losing money on paid users, and their cost base was never so high.

When you say "true cost" I've interpreted that to mean the down-sides of using an AI ChatBot as a primary information source, so my reply below is in context of that interpretation:

There is a sizeable chunk of people who (perhaps foolishly) trust ChatGPT despite knowing it can produce errors. They use it because it does the "research" for them, and does so quickly. This presents a type of tech-agility that they themselves do not possess. So on balance they may be more tech-empowered by using a flawed AI ChatBot than they are by manually reading news, websites and blogs.

There is also an issue of trust. A novice reading the top 5 search results has no real idea if the information being presented is biased, error free, or even factual. Google's work to blend paid and organic placement also presents the flaw of dollars over quality. ChatGPT on the other hand presents a known level of trust to them.

A similar scenario plays out with the way novices are more trusting of apps that appear on a curated store rather than seeking out software via web searches.

I think that users on HN take for granted that they have outsized experience and skill in developing trust in the tech landscape, and have a mental list of news, websites and software providers that they deem trustworthy. This can lead to not understanding the motivation for relying on an AI ChatBot, or compartmentalising people who use those services as some kind simpleton.

I don’t see why you wouldn’t book a flight using an AI assistant. No one’s saying it should do it completely unsupervised (maybe that’ll come much later), but having something that can research the best routes based on my criteria and show me several options — with a single click to purchase the one I find most convenient — is something I’d love.

It could even work against the dynamic pricing algorithms airlines use to maximize revenue: if I have a tireless assistant exploring every possible combination to find the cheapest ticket, it’ll probably do a much better job than I ever could.

There's probably little danger to the savvy user who understands how manipulative technology like this can be.

The problems come when vulnerable users are targeted using dark patterns. How AI dark patterns will evolve is very uncertain [1] however I suspect they will be extremely subtle and very effective.

What's the worst that can happen if someone vulnerable is persuaded to buy a flight by an AI. I don't know, maybe depression and bad credit after the chatbot's promises weren't met. If they're persuaded to buy a weapon, that's a different matter.

At least current advertising is somewhat public, although that's increasingly less true as ads get more targeted.

This is new territory where ads will be so extremely private it will be only known by the user (maybe they won't even notice) and someone reading the subpoenaed chat logs after a user does something terrible. Those chat logs will likely be inconclusive anyway.

[1] https://venturebeat.com/ai/darkness-rising-the-hidden-danger...

I suppose you just have to trust that it's incentivized to find you the best route and not only offer you 3 options which it says are the best, but are actually paid promotions.

It depends too on what you value. I’d be more than happy to pay a premium if it meant the time for me looking for a flight and having a seat booked is drastically reduced.

We used to get that through the services of a travel agency. Maybe we will soon have that luxury again?

I would try using AI to book flights - then double check if I can't get a better offer. Do this a couple of times and when I see AI is as good or even better at getting me flights, then sure, why not use it.

Extrapolating from my experience testing it for coding tasks the result is not reliable even if it was right a couple of times. A risk I'm not willing to take. And I can't say that AI powered chat assistants on web pages have been much help either.

You can even automate this kind of testing in the AI model. I think the Google ADK has a built-in system for tests you use to confirm the reply quality.

I suspect the cost of the AI will end up being more than the difference in flight pricing, but we'll see.

I feel the same, but Airline and big hotel websites have way too many dark patterns made to confuse the user and force them to pay extra.

Booking an emergency flight last time I had a family issue was a mind-fucking experience. I had to go through 10 screens trying to sell me stuff and constantly hiding the skip button in different places. Maybe HN will say that I "shouldn't have had a family emergency in the first place" but reality is realty.

And honestly it's not just booking websites, it's anything tech that they do. For example, the last checkin kiosk I used also had an incredibly convoluted path for the case where someone else booked my luggage but it was a different size.

> but Airline and big hotel websites have way too many dark patterns made to confuse the user and force them to pay extra.

And sooner or later these websites will implement new dark patterns to confuse the LLMs...

I’m with you. My elderly parents always ask me to book a ticket for them every time they need to fly because the airline websites are so full of dark patterns, it drives them anxious that they’ve missed something or spent money on something they don’t need.

This is sadly prevalent in some niches (e.g. low cost travel), but I don't think LLMs would be able to navigate those dark patterns better than humans would.

Ah, yeah. I assume from this comment you aren't in either US or EU, the only places this is better. It sucks.

That's the crazy part: I'm in the EU, where it's supposed to be better.

Indeed this problem could become worse. Dark patterns are darker when you cannot see them at all

I would argue a website made to buy you tickets (skyscanner f.e.) is always gonna be a better interface than chat.

Right now I cant imagine an AI (esp. chat) being more convenient for me than skyscanner or Google Hotels, but maybe I’m missing the imagination.

Flexibility is the advantage. In a chat interface, you can type literally whatever you want and ChatGPT will do its best to serve you. In a website like Skyscanner, you are inherently limited by their UI design.

If all you want is the cheapest flight on a specific day, Skyscanner is really great. But what if you need to book a bus at the other end of your flight? Skyscanner is not going to help you with that, but ChatGPT might! It could search up different bus providers in your destination and cross-reference them against the available flights.

How much you trust ChatGPT to actually do this well is up to you. But I suspect a lot of people will trust it, and I would probably be willing to use it for low-stakes tasks at least.

I would argue Skyscanner or whatever other company is better in offering additional services (hotels, taxis, buses) than ChatGPT, because it’s specialized.

I think if you really exactly know what you want the input in AI might be faster "book me on the flight tomorrow at 1pm from x to y on airline xyz -y" This I could imagine being faster, but it would still require verification by me to actually pay. I wonder if AI is faster in doing that given the added latency compared to me visiting airline xyz and doing the search manually (even perceive loading time taking in consideration) as it will be perceived less time if you are active.

>you can type literally whatever you want and ChatGPT

And ChatGPT will answer whatever it wants

It will just iframe whatever page/app you would have been browsing anyway but potentially with ChatGPT directly being able to operate on the App state. So if configured, I guess ChatGPT will be just a handy middle layer to your usual interfaces.

It baffles me that people seem to think that chat is limited to text and text only. We're not there yet but the moment chats get excellent embedded interfaces is when we see this tech really come to fruition - at least from a consumer point of view.

Here's somewhat of a counter example. At work our llm project can schedule you time off. Workday already has a dedicated UI for this, so text interface can't be better right? Well it's a very popular feature, people use it all the time. In my opinion it's not better than a dedicated UI, but for some people it's good enough and more convenient (our site loads much faster than workday, they are likely already using it throughout their day, etc.)

Ahh great point thank you very much this makes a lot of sense.

I see my mistake now. I evaluate based on how it could be useful for me. As a heavy computer user, familiar with shortcuts and user interfaces, interacting with UX works very good.

But for a lot of users text will be more natural and easier. I might be able to get the flight I want easiest with Skyscanner, but other users might not be and will come to a better result with texts.

It’s the same as I prefer documentations over Youtube tutorials, but it’s different on different stages.

It's not a case of wanting to it's a case of going to ChatGPT first instead of going to Google or the iOS App Store.

Currently GPT gets you better answers than Google so people are gonna be going there first.

That says a lot more about what Google has become, than GPT.

That was my intention, they've completely dropped the ball lately and I don't know if its incompetence or just they through there would never be another option so felt the need to optimize for another metric than search success.

The majority of americans are more concerned with AI. Only like 22% are optimistic. And why would they be optimistic that it'll result in a better life for them

But, hear me out.

If (when) companies want their things to be present in ChatGPT replies, they need to provide an AI-compatible way to get it. Just shoving a full-ass web page at it is inefficient and error-prone.

They have to either build a version of their site that's AI-accessible or provide an API (or MCP) for it to access the data.

Now that the API is built and the cost is paid, we can use it for non-AI uses.

In India, it is pretty common to call a travel agent and book tickets, in fact it is the preferred method for those who can afford it. It is super convenient, everything including the transfer of funds is taken care of by the agent.

This experience is 10x better than online alternatives. AI agents can replicate this at marginal cost.

And knowing the Indian mindset and education level of the people, there are most likely a 1000 startups doing just that right now =)

you don't have to go so far as it buying the tickets for you if you don't trust it enough to do that. I built a deep research agent and one of the tasks that i found it very useful for was taking complex requirements and building a report for me to review and make decisions based off of. I live in one city, my travel partner lives in another, and we each want flights to get to a city around the same time, options for airbnbs, and travel activities. I may not trust ai to do this without human intervention but i certainly trust it to assemble this information for me with options and i can make decisions based on that

Same here. Neither do I trust these tools to be working accurately, nor do I have the patience to wait for them to complete the given task when I ca do that manually 10x faster already.

There's no way I give an AI access to my wallet, every expense he makes should be approved at least.

I dismay at the possibility of this happening. What’s the point of an internet at all if one company controls, filters, and governs our entire usage of it?

I understand an argument can be made that google is doing similar, but at least you can still search and end up on an actual site, rather than just play telephone via chatgpt. This concept is horrifying for so many reasons.

I agree with the fact that a monopolized web is not friendlier to anyone. But seeing the trajectories of tech companies in the past decade, the unfortunate north star is distribution and the relentless pursuit of it.

Even in that dire circumstance, I wish that the web versions keep up/are maintained, instead of being slowly deprecated, which happened for a lot of mobile-native versions of applications.

> What’s the point of an internet at all

Going back to first principles, we need to recall that the internet is for the dissemination of cat pictures, and at the end of the day every technical and organizational change must be analyzed through the lens of its impact on the effective throughput of these pictures.

Just like I won't trust voice assistants to make purchases for me, or make decisions that actually matter, there is no way in hell that I'm letting an LLM be able to charge my credit card, let alone book flights for me lol

Think of how much work it'll create to correct these charges. I bet there's application for understanding and issuing refunds & corrections…

I suspect our future is going to be a lot more frustrating, both from AI screwups and the atrophied skills of humans

You'll be dealing with AI agents all the way down.

A decade ago, I used one of the hotel aggregator sites to reserve rooms for vacation, and as I call the hotel to double check something on my way to the airport, I find out that I don't actually have a reservation and my room is already occupied. They couldn't do anything about it, as it was the 3rd party aggregator's mistake.

Just getting the aggregator to admit, that no, even though their system says I have a reservation, the hotel confirmed it didn't exist took over an hour. I had to go through several layers of customer service, and I suspect different call centers, until someone called the hotel themselves and issued a refund.

It was miserable and stressful to do from the airport, I would have lost my mind if I had to deal with chatbots for what was already a terrible experience with an automated purchase.

As I understand it, ChatGPT loads the app, performs safe actions, but in the end shows you an UI to confirm the purchase.

The main showstopper here is trust.

I just can't let anything AI make decisions that have consequences, like spending money, buying anything, planning vacations, flights etc. It's so bad now (I've just tried) that I'm not sure if it will ever gain my trust.

I see your point in user trust, and that's fair, but the same concerns have been prevalent since GPT3 rolled out , that no one would trust these tools to write or edit anything. However, since then users are growing to be more and more attuned to filter and distinguish the quality of the responses (doing invisible A/B testing of these responses), so maybe that's what providers want to capitalize on.

ChatGPT has become one of the top-most browsed websites, and they want to capitalize on it even if 2% of the people actually trust the new integrations.

You can build your own system and set the model temperature to 0.0, then it won't guess or be fancy. It'll present the data exactly.

not to mention the privacy concerns associated with connecting my entire life to OpenAI or Anthropic. If you have the memory feature enabled, it's scary how much ChatGPT knows about you already and can even infer implicit thoughts and patterns about you as a person.

I am sure it already knows a lot regardless of the memory feature, as long you're sharing your chat history/ have your history enabled, but I agree, it'd simply worsen it.

OpenAI has had this opportunity to do this since their meteoric adoption and fumbled it with plugins and then GPTs. Ironically, Anthropic's MCP could be just the ingredient needed to capture this position.

Why would you go inside a chat box and try to force fit applications and show the applications in weird ways and then finally link out to the actual application instead of just putting a chat box inside the application which is the accepted way.

If I had a human assistant, I'd ask them to book my flight. The chat box is your window to your AI assistant. Maybe this new assistant hasn't earned your trust yet, but it makes sense that trust-aside, you'd ask your assistant to do whatever they could do for you.

Right. But my assistant wouldn't show me a new screen and ask me to do things in it :)

It’s an assistant to the assistant

Years ago (in the age of flip phones, think pre 2001) I worked at a bank.

When we launched our mobile banking platform, one of the PM's there swore up and down that we should be piloting banking by text message. He was fabulously wrong at the time and in the end got a lot of things right.

There are a lot of applications that could fit in a text box provided that your not doing the work rather that your delegating it.

This is basically Super App, most super apps was based off chat, this one is also chat, except the chat is with AI, or let’s be honest, with millions of dead people or poor workers.

Searching? Google has become shit and ads.

This conception makes sense iff you believe in ChatGPT as the universal user interface of the future. If anything the agentic wave is showing that the chat interfaces are better off hidden behind stricter user interface paradigms.

I suspect there are many, many things for which chat is a great interface. And by positioning ChatGPT as the distributor for all these things, they get to be the new Google. But you're also right that many domains for which a purpose-built interface is the right approach, and if the domain is valuable enough, it'll have someone coming after it to build that.

I have yet to see a chat agent deployed that is more popular than tailored browsing methods. The most charitable way to explain this is that the tailored browsing methods already in place are the results of years of careful design and battle testing and that the chat agent is providing most of the value that a tailored browsing method would but without any of the investment required to bring a traditional UX to fruition - that may be the case and if it is then allowing them the same time to be refined and improved would be fair. I am skeptical of that being the only difference though, I think that chatbots are a way to, essentially, outsource the difficult work of locating data within a corpus onto the user and that users will always have a disadvantage compared to the (hopefully) subject matter experts building the system.

So perhaps chatbots are an excellent method for building out a prototype in a new field while you collect usage statistics to build a more refined UX - but it is bizarre that so many businesses seem to be discarding battle tested UXes for chatbots.

agree.

Thing is, for those who paid attention to the last chatBot hype cycle, we already knew this. Look at how Google Assistant was portrayed back in 2016. People thought you'd be buying starbucks via the chat. Turns out the starbucks app has a better UX

Yea, I don't want to sit there at my computer, which can handle lots of different input methods, like keyboard, mouse, clicking, dragging, or my phone which can handle gestures, pinching, swiping... and try to articulate what I need it to do in English language conversation. This is actually a step backwards in human-computer interaction. To use an extreme example: imagine instead of a knob on my stereo for volume, I had a chat box where I had to type in "Volume up to 35". Most other "chatbot solved" HCI problems are just like this volume control example, but less extreme.

It's funny, because the chat bot designers seem to be continually attempting to recreate the voice computer interface from Star Trek: TNG. Yet if you watch the show carefully, the vast majority of the work done by all the Enterprise crew is done via touchscreens, not voice.

The only reason for the voice interface is to facilitate the production of a TV show. By having the characters speak their requests aloud to the computer as voice commands, the show bypasses all the issues of building visual effects for computer screens and making those visuals easy to interpret for the audience, regardless of their computing background. However, whenever the show wants to demonstrate a character with a high level of computer mastery, the demonstration is almost always via the touchscreen (this is most often seen with Data), not the voice interface.

TNG had issues like this figured out years ago, yet people continue to fall into the same trap because they repeatedly fail to learn the lessons the show had to teach.

It's actually hilarious to think of a scene where all the people on the bridge are shouting over each other trying to get the ship to do anything at all.

Maybe this is how we all get our own offices again and the open floor plan dies.

Hmm. Maybe something useful will come of this after all!

"...and that is why we need the resources. Newline, end document. Hey, guys, I just got done with my 60 page report, and need-"

"SELECT ALL, DELETE, SAVE DOCUMENT, FLUSH UNDO, PURGE VERSION HISTORY, CLOSE WINDOW."

Here's hoping this at least gets us back to cubes.

Getting our own offices would simply take collective action, and we're far too smart to join a union, err, software developers association to do that.

They’d just have an array of microphones everywhere and isolate each voice - rooms only need n+1 microphones where n is the maximum number of people. That’s already simple to do today, and it’s not even that expensive.

Profound observation, thank you for this.

Remember Alexa? Amazon kept wanting people to buy things with their voice via assorted echo devices, but it turns out people really want to actually be in charge of what their computers are doing, rather than talking out loud and hoping for the best.

“volume up to 35”

>changes bass to +4 because the unit doesn't do half increments

“No volume up to 35, do not touch the EQ”

>adjusts volume to 4 because the unit doesn’t do half increments

> I reach over, grab my remote, and do it myself

We have a grandparent that really depends on their Alexa and let me tell you repeatedly going “hey Alexa, volume down. Hey Alexa, volume down. Hey Alexa, volume down,” gets really old lol we just walk over and start using the touch interface

It's also a matter of incentives. Starbucks wants you in their app instead of as a widget in somebody else's - it lets them tell you about new products, cross-sell/up-sell, create habits, etc.

This general concept (embedding third parties as widgets in a larger product) has been tried many times before. Google themselves have done this - by my count - at least three separate times (Search, Maps, and Assistant).

None have been successful in large part because the third party being integrated benefits only marginally from such an integration. The amount of additional traffic these integrations drive generally isn't seen as being worth the loss of UX control and the intermediation in the customer relationship.

Current LLMs are way better at understanding language than the old voice assistants.

Omg thank you guys. It felt so obvious to me but nobody talked about it.

A UX is better and another app or website feels like the exact separation needed.

Booking flights => browser => skyscanner => destination typing => evaluation options with ai suggestions on top and UX to fine-tune if I have out of the ordinary wishes (don’t want to get up so early)

I can’t imagine a human or an AI be better than is this specialized UX.

Hard disagree.

At least in my domains, the "battle-tested" UX is a direct replication of underlying data structures and database tables.

What chat gives you access to is a non-structured input that a clever coder can then sufficiently structure to create a vector database query.

Natural language turns out to be far more flexible and nuanced interface than walls of checkboxes.

> I have yet to see a chat agent deployed that is more popular than tailored browsing methods.

Not an agent, but I've seen people choose doctors based on asking ChatGpt for criteria and the did make those appointments. Saved them countless web interfaces to dig through.

ChatGpt saved me so much money by searching for discount coupons on courses.

It even offered free entrance passwords on events I didn't know had such a thing (I asked it where the event was and it also told me the free entrance password it found on some obscure site).

I've seen doctors use ChatGpt to generate medical letters -- Chat Gpt used some medical letters python code and the doctors loved the result.

I've used ChatGpt to trim an energy bill to 10 pages because my current provider generated a 12 page bill in an attempt to prevent me from switching (because they knew the other provider did not accept bills of more than 10 pages).

Combined with how incredibly good codex is, combined with how easily chat gpt can just create throw away one-time apps, no way the whole agent interface doesn't eat a huge chunk of the traditional UX software we are used to.

> the tailored browsing methods already in place are the results of years of careful design and battle testing

Have you ever worked in a corporation? Do you really think that Windows 8 UI was the fruit of years of careful design? What about Workday?

> but it is bizarre that so many businesses seem to be discarding battle tested UXes for chatbots

Not really. If the chatbot is smart enough then chatbot is the more natural interface. I've seen people who prefer to say "hey siri set alarm clock for 10 AM" rather than use the UI. Which makes sense, because language is the way people literally have evolved specialized organs for. If anything, language is the "battle tested UX", and the other stuff is temporary fad.

Of course the problem is that most chatbots aren't smart. But this is a purely technical problem that can be solved within foreseeable future.

> I've seen people who prefer to say "hey siri set alarm clock for 10 AM" rather than use the UI.

It's quicker that way. Other things, such as zooming in to an image, are quicker with a GUI. Bladerunner makes clear how the voice UI is poor for this compared to a GUI.

In an alarm, there is only one parameter to set. In more complex tasks, chat is a bad ui because it does not scale well and it does not offer good ways to arrange information. Eg if I want to buy something and I have a bunch of constraints, I would rather use a search-based UI where i can fast tweak these constraints and decide. Chathpt being smart or not here is irrelevant, it would just be bad ui for the task.

You're thinking in wrong categories. Suppose you want to buy a table. You could say "I'm looking for a €400 100x200cm table, black" and these are your search criteria. But that's not what you actually want. What you actually want is a table that fits your use case and looks nice and doesn't cost much, and "€400 100x200cm table, black" is a discrete approximation of your initial fuzzy search. A chatbot could talk to you about what you want, and suggest a relevant product.

Imagine going to a shop and browsing all the aisles vs talking to the store employee. Chatbot is like the latter, but for a webshop.

Not to mention that most webshops have their categories completely disorganized, making "search by constraints" impossible.

Funny, I almost always don't want to talk to store employees about what I want. I want to browse their stock and decide for myself. This is especially true for anything that I have even a bit of knowledge about.

The thing is that "€400 100x200cm table, black" is just much faster to input and validate versus a salesperson, be it a chatbot or an actual person.

Also, the chatbot is just not going to have enough context, at least not in it's current state. Why those measurements? Because that's how much room you have, you measured. Why black? Because your couch is black too (bad choice), and you're trying to do a theme.

That's kind of a lot to explain.

Even when going to a shop, I prefer to look into the options myself first. Explaining a salesperson what I need can take much more time, and then I am never sure if they just try to upsell, if I can explain my use case well etc. The only case where I opt for a salesperson first is when I cannot translate my use case to specification due to high degree of technical or other knowledge needed. I can imagine eg somebody who knows nothing about computers ask "I want a laptop, with good battery, I would use it for this and that", the same way they would ask a salesperson or a technical friend. But I cannot imagine using such an LLM to look for a table where I need it to fit measurements etc, or anything that is not inaccessible in terms of product knowledge. If I know the specifications, opting for an AI chatbot is inefficient. If not, it could help.

> I've seen people who prefer to say "hey siri set alarm clock for 10 AM" rather than use the UI. Which makes sense, because language is the way people literally have evolved specialized organs for.

I don't think it's necessary to resort to evolutionary-biology explanations for that.

When I use voice to set my alarm, it's usually because my phone isn't in my hand. Maybe it's across the room from me. And speaking to it is more efficient than walking over to it, picking it up, and navigating to the alarm-setting UI. A voice command is a more streamlined UI for that specific task than a GUI is.

I don't think that example says much about chatbots, really, because the value is mostly the hands-free aspect, not the speak-it-in-English aspect.

Even when my phone is in my hand I'll use voice for a number of commands, because it's faster.

I'd love to know the kind of phone you're using where the voice commands are faster than touchscreen navigation.

Most of the practical day to day tasks on the Androids I've used are 5-10 taps away from a lock screen, and get far less dirty looks from those around me.

My favorite voice command is to set a timer.

If I use the touchscreen I have to:

1 unlock the phone - easy, but takes an active swipe

2 go to the clock app - i might not have been on the home screen, maybe a swipe or two to get there

3 set the timer to what I want - and here it COMPLETELY falls down, since it probably is showing how long the last timer I set was, and if that's not what I want, I have to fiddle with it.

If I do it with my voice I don't even have to look away from what I'm currently doing. AND I can say "90 seconds" or "10 minutes" or "3 hours" or even (at least on an iPhone) "set a timer for 3PM" and it will set it to what I say without me having to select numbers on a touchscreen.

And 95% of the time there's nobody around who's gonna give me a dirty look for it.

and less mental overhead. Go to the home screen, find the clock app, go to the alarm tab, set the time, set the label, turn it on, get annoyed by the number of alarms that are there that I should delete so there isn't a million of them. Or just ask Siri to do it.

One thing people forget is that if you do it by hand you can do it even when people are listening, or when it’s loud. Meaning its working more reliable. And in your brain you only have to store one execution instead of two. So I usually prefer the more reliable approach.

I don’t know any people that do Siri except the people that have really bad eyes

God I miss physical buttons and controls. being able to do something without even looking at it.

> Not really. If the chatbot is smart enough then chatbot is the more natural interface. I've seen people who prefer to say "hey siri set alarm clock for 10 AM" rather than use the UI. Which makes sense, because language is the way people literally have evolved specialized organs for. If anything, language is the "battle tested UX", and the other stuff is temporary fad.

I do that all the time with Siri for setting alarms and timers. Certain things have extremely simple speech interfaces. And we've already found a ton of them over the last decade+. If it was useful to use speech for ordering an uber, it would've been worth it for me to learn the specific syntax Alexa wanted.

Do I want to talk to a chatbot to get a detailed table of potential flight and hotel options? Hell no. It doesn't matter how smart it is, I want to see them on a map and be able to hover, click into them, etc. Speech would be slow and awful for that.

Alarm is a good example of an “output only” task. The more inputs that need to be processed the less a pure chatbot interface is good (think lunch bowl menus, shopping in general etc.)

> Of course the problem is that most chatbots aren't smart. But this is a purely technical problem that can be solved within foreseeable future.

Ah yes, it's just a small detail. Don't worry about it.

I'm sure some very smart Chatbots are working on it.

I don't understand how come that a website for tech people turned into a boomerland of people who pride themselves in not using technology. It's like those people who refuse to use computers because they prefer doing everything the old-fashioned way and they insist on the society following them.

Maybe you can have discussions with a chatbot instead. They always agree with you.

I knew it!

-diehard CLI user

i can't imagine that users will be interested in asking chatGPT to ask zillow things, or ask chatGPT to ask canva to do things. that's a clunky interface. i can see users asking chatGPT to look up house prices, or to generate graphics, but they're not going to ask for zillow or canva specifically.

and if the apps are trusting ChatGPT to send them users based on those sort of queries, it's only a matter of time before ChatGPT brings the functionality first-party and cuts out the apps - any app who believes chat is the universal interface of the future and exposes their functionality as a ChatGPT app is signing their own death warrant.

Every company should see OpenAi as a threat. They absolutely will come for you when the time comes.

It's just like Google and websites, but much more insidious. If they can get your data, they'll subsume your function (and revenue stream).

That and the erosion in privacy make OpenAI somehthing to be very vigilant about.

This x1000. Are businesses short sided enough to help create and develop another wallet garden just like "Google" and "Amazon" are right now? Time will tell but I think businesses want to own their sales funnel, not just give the user a way to avoid interacting with them.

Exactly.

This is exactly the same playbook as has already been played multiple times in the past(and currently playing) by existing companies.

These companies initially laid out red carpets for such builders, but once they themselves had enough apps, they started to tighten the rope, and then gradually shifted to complete 100% control and extortion in the name of "security" or other made-up-excuse.

No-more walled garden. If something like this has to come (which I truly believe is helpful), it should be buiild on open-web and open protocols, not controlled by single for-profit company (ironical since OpenAI is technically non-profit).

>If anything the agentic wave is showing that the chat interfaces are better off hidden behind stricter user interface paradigms.

I'm not sure that claim is justified. The primary agentic use case today is code generation, and the target demographic is used to IDEs/code editors.

While that's probably a good chunk of total token usage, it's not representative of the average user's needs or desires. I strongly doubt that the chat interface would have become so ubiquitous if it didn't have merit.

Even for more general agentic use, a chat interface allows the user the convenience of typing or dictating messages. And it's trivially bundled with audio-to-audio or video-to-video, the former already being common.

I expect that even in the future, if/when richer modalities become standard (and the models can produce video in real-time), most people will be consuming their outputs as text. It's simply more convenient for most use-cases.

Having already seen this explored late '24, what ends up happening is that the end user generates apps that have lots of jank, quirks, and logical errors that they lack the ability to troubleshoot or resolve. Like the fast forward button corrupting their settings config, the cloud sync feature causing 100% CPU load, icons gradually drifting away from their original positions on each window resize event, or the GUI tutorial activating every time they switch views in the app. Even worse, because their app is the only one of its kind, there is no other human to turn to for advice.

Hopefully, people, and technology aren't stuck in late '24.

It's not just as ChatGPT as the interface. It's that Chat with AI will now be the universal interface and every tech company will have their version of it. Everything you want to do will happen in one place. Cards will provide predefined and interactive experience. Over time you'll see entirely dynamic content get generated on the fly. The user experience is going to be one where we've shrunk websites to apps and apps to cards or widgets. Effectively any action you need to take can be done like this and then agents can operate more complex workflow in the background. This is probably the interface for the next 10 years and what replaces the mobile app experience and stronghold that Apple or Google have. This lasts until fully immersive AR/VR become a more mainstream thing. At that point these cards are on a heads up display but we'll be looking at something totally different. Like agents roaming the earth...

This has been the pitched playbook for decades. (Metamates!) I'm increasingly convinced its driven by a specific generation of tech entrepreneurs who cut their teeth while reading ca. 1980s science fiction.

I could see chat apps becoming dominant in Slack-oriented workplaces. But, like, chatting with an AI to play a song is objectively worse than using Spotify. Dynamically-created music sounds nice until one considers the social context in which non-filler music is heard.

The thing it reminds me of is those old Silicon Graphics greybeards that were smug about how they were creating tools for people that created wealth when those other system providers "just" created tools for people tracking wealth.

There's a whole bizarre subculture in computing that fails to recognize what it is about computers that people actually find valuable.

It's because Zuck can't own a pane of glass. He's locked out of the smartphone duopoly.

Everyone wants the next device category. They covet it. Every other company tries to will it into existence.

Chatting with an AI to play a song whose title you know, sure.

Getting an AI to play "that song that goes hmm hmmm hmmm hmmm ... uh, it was in some commercials when I was a kid" tho

> Getting an AI to play "that song that goes hmm hmmm hmmm hmmm ... uh, it was in some commercials when I was a kid" tho

Absolutely. The point is this is a specialised and occasional use case. You don't want to have to go through a chat bot every time you want to play a particular song just because sometimes you might hum at it.

The closest we've come to a widely-adopted AR interface are AirPods. Critically, however, they work by mimicing how someone would speak to a real human by them.

more abstract than that, "I'm throwing a wedding/funeral/startup IPO/Halloween/birthday party for a whatever year old and need appropriate music". Or, without knowing specific bands, "I want to hear some 80's metal music". "more cowbell!"

You don't need AI for this, Spotify has, like, infinite playlists.

Also their playlists are made by real people (mostly...), so they don't completely suck ass.

Playlists aren't interactive though. I can't say "like this but with less guitar".

Also, following the Beatport top 100 tech house playlist, and hearing how many tracks aren't actually tech house makes me wonder about who makes that particular playlist.

I don't know, I don't buy that this is a use case that matters enough to sway anyone.

That's how I feel about a lot of AI stuff.

Like... It's neat. It's a fun novelty. It makes a good party trick. It's the software equivalent of a knick knack.

Like 90% of the pixel AI features. There's some good ones in there, sure, but most of them you play around with for a day and then forget exist.

Okay so you're at the party, and you do a cool party trick, and then that cute stranger you've been eyeing all night finally comes over to talk to you. Why's it need to be more than that?

Because we're pouring trillions of dollars into that.

This isn't me making a cute little website in my free time. This is thousands of developers, super computers out the wazoo, and a huge chunk of the western economy.

Like, a snowglobe is cute. They don't do much, but they're cute. I'd buy one for ten dollars.

I would not buy a snowglobe for 10 million dollars.

The interface of the future is local "AI" in the form of functions embedded in hardware inferred from data sets

One way to consider it that I like as an EE working in the energy model realm; consider the geometry of an oscilloscope.

Electromagnetism to be carved up into equations that recreate it.

Geometric generators that create bulk structure and allow for changing min/max parameters to achieve desired result.

Consider a hardware system that boots and offers little more than blender and photoshop like parameter UI widgets to manipulate whatever segment of the geometry that isn't quite right.

Currently we rely on an OS paradigm that is basically a virtual machine to noodle strings. The future will be a vector virtual machine that lets users noodle coordinates.

Way less resource intensive to think of it all as sync of memory matrix to display matrix and jettison all the syntax sugar developers stuck with string munging OS of history.

I agree with you. I think chat interfaces are really good with voice interfaces while walking, asking for a foreign language lesson, effectively doing a web search while walking by speaking and listening to the answer.

Other app-like interfaces like NotebookLM can be useful, for me one or two real uses a week.

Then there is engineering small open models into larger systems to do structured data extraction, etc.

I am skeptical about the current utility of agentic systems, MCP, etc. - even though I like to experiment.

Someone else said that at least the didn’t go on and on about AGI today - a nice thing. FOMO chasing ASI and AGI will drive us bankrupt, and produce some useful results.

I agree with what you are saying.

I’m building a tool that helps you solve any type of questionnaire (https://requestf.com) and I just can’t imagine how I could leverage Apps.

It would be awesome to get the distribution, but it has to also make sense from the UX perspective.

Your link is broken?

> conception makes sense iff you believe in ChatGPT as the universal user interface of the future

Out of curiosity, why iff?

"iff" means "if and only if". It's common in mathematics.

Correct. I’m asking why this SDK makes sense <—> ChatGPT becomes a universal interface. Why isn’t it useful for intermediate applications?

The apps can send any arbitrary HTML / interface back though.

e.g. Coursera can send back a video player

This will be a bunch of rushed garbage. It will be like Java applets

Maybe, but don't forget they are godly at iteration.

There's a lot of appropriate blowback against stupid AI hype and I'm all for it. But I do think in many respects it's a better interface than (1) bad search results, (2) cluttered websites, (3) freemium apps with upgrade nags, as well as the collective search cost of sorting through all those things.

I remember reading some not-Neuromancer book by William Gibson where one of his near-future predictions was print magazines but with custom printed articles curated to fit your interests. Which is cool! In a world where print magazines were still dominant, you could see it as a forward iteration from the magazine status quo, potentially predictive of a future to come. But what happened in reality was a wholesale leapfrogging of magazines.

So I think you sometimes get leapfrogging rather than iteration, which I suspect is in play as a possibility with AI driven apps. I don't think apps will ever literally be replaced but I think there's a real chance they get displaced by AI everything-interfaces. I think the mitigating factor is not some foundational limit to AI's usefulness but enshittification, which I don't think used to consume good services so voraciously in the 00s or 2010s as it does today. Something tells me we might look back at the current chat based interfaces as the good old days.

I think you need to be careful here because you shouldn't be comparing chat apps to the current state of search results. Instead you compare it to the ideal or to the state of them before companies decided that instead of providing what people are looking for it was more profitable to provide them with related content that they're paid to show.

We are at a moment where we're trying to figure out how to design good interfaces, but very soon after that the moment of "okay, now let's start selling with them" will come and that's really what we're going to be left with.

In that regard, things like adblockers which now a days can be used to mitigate some of these defects you talk about are probably going to be much more difficult to implement in a chat-app interface. What are we going to do when we ask an agent for something and it responds with an ad rather than the relevant information we're seeking? It seems to me like it's going to be even more difficult to be in control for the user.

Its fine though, because this technology is a commodity, anyone can run it or resell it. I expect I can continue paying Kagi or someone like them to provide a good experience at a fair price.

I think you're right that it's going to get enshittified (in fact I tried to say a similar thing toward the end of my comment). I'll stand by this though, LLM Chat, as it exists now, is (imo) objectively better than Google Search, as it is now. Google Search at its best (or, say, Kagi), vs LLM Chat at its best, I would say there's an interesting open question, but I can see the case for chat winning.

But I think it's going to be like Kagi, you'll pay for a subscription to a good-enough one, but the main companies will try to make their proprietary ones too feature rich and too convenient so that you'll have no choice but to use their enshittified version. What we have now might be a golden age that we will miss having.

But, for better or worse, I do think what's coming may be a paradigm where they are effectively one big omniscient super-app.

I'll say it: ChatGPT is better than Kagi, and better than Google Search 1.0 at searching the web and finding relevant sources, even if that is all you use it for is to just find links that you read. Usually its analysis is sound if I don't know anything about the subject matter.

My 5 year-old nephew's analysis is also sound when you don't know anything about the subject matter

Does your 5 year-old nephew understand sarcasm?

at least with bad search results, you had to look at them to know they were bad or become used to certain domains that you could prejudge the result and move to the next one. LLMs confidently tell you false/made up information as fact. If you fail to follow up with any references and just accept result, you are very susceptible to getting fooled by the machine. Getting outside of the tech bubble echo chamber that is HN, a large number of GPT app users have never heard of hallucinations or any of the issues inherit with LLMs.

Once it's efficient enough, you will be able to just vocally talk to your computer to do all of this. Text chat is just the simplest form of a natural language interface, which is obviously the future of computing.

The ChatGPT phone app has had voice conversation mode for a while now. it's more interactive than a podcast while driving. There are apps (Wispr, non-affiliated) to make talking to your computer easier. The future is definitely a hybrid of them. sometimes I want to talk, other times I want to type.

I don’t think natural language is efficient enough. Whether that be text or voice.

I imagine the Star Trek vision is pretty accurate. You occasionally talk to the computer when it makes sense, but more often than not you’re still interacting with a GUI of some kind.

WeChat is the counterexample of your affirmation.

Is wechat purely conservational, without visuals? I think not.

Is it? Honestly, most agents and/or ai apps I interact with that are actually useful present some form of chat-like interface.

I’m not very bullish on people wanting to live in the ChatGPT UI, specifically, but the concept of dynamic apps embedded into a chat-experience I think is a reasonable direction.

I’m mostly curious about if and when we get an open standard for this, similar to MCP.

The whole value of an actual executive assistant is them solving problems and you not micromanaging them.

What users want, which various entities religiously avoid providing to us, is a fair price comparison and discovery mechanism for essentially everything. A huge part of the value of LLMs to date is in bypassing much of the obfuscation that exists to perpetuate this, and that's completely counteracted by much of what they're demonstrating here.

Yes, I certainly prefer "chatting with Claude Code" to "Copilot taking forever to hallucinate all over my IDE, displacing the much-more-useful previous-generation semantic autocomplete."

The former is like a Waymo, the latter is like my car suddenly and autonomously deciding that now is a good time to turn into a Dollar Tree to get a COVID vaccine when I'm on my way to drop my kid off at a playdate.

I think this is very interesting, but it is reminiscent of what we built with Phind 2 where the answer could include dynamic, pre-built widgets.

The problem with this approach is precisely that these apps/widgets have hard-coded input and output schema. They can work quite well when the user asks something within the widget's capabilities, but the brittleness of this approach starts showing quickly in real-world use. What if you want to use more advanced filters with Zillow? Or perhaps cross-reference with StreetEasy? If those features aren't supported by the widget's hard-coded schema, you're out of luck as a user.

What I think it much more exciting is the ability to completely create generative UI answers on the fly. We'll have more to say on this soon from Phind (I'm the founder).

Phind is awesome. I often forget to use it until legacy search engines fail to surface what I’m looking for after a dozen searches. Phind usually finds it.

That said, I used it a lot more a year ago. Lately I’ve been using regular LLMs since they’ve gotten better at searching.

Thanks for the feedback. I think that our main differentiator going forward will be this generative UI on the fly for answering questions as opposed to search alone.

In a similar boat, but have been increasingly returning to for its quick notebook/charting capabilities. Would be awesome to somehow be able to select between different UI modes offering search, ranking, graphing or else depending on user needs.

Given there is already a MCP-UI project, I’m not surprised it can be done. But even that I’m not very convinced that it’s the right approach. After all, it’s still far too slow for real usage…

Totally agree that it's too slow with conventional approaches, which is why we're training custom models for this that we can run fast

Ah, that’s interesting. I’m considering building something similar for our product, and my solution to the schema constraints you mentioned thus far is breaking my widgets into blocks as universal as possible, as to still be useful. All of this is just ideas yet mind you, but my thinking was—maybe I can get the model to pick from a range of composable widgets depending on the task that are interoperable?

For a concrete example, think a search result listing that can be broken down into a single result or a matrix to compare results, as well as a filter section. So you could ask for different facets of your current context, to iterate over a search session and interact with the results. Dunno, I’m still researching.

Have you written somewhere about your experience with Phind in this area?

Yes! We have a blog post here on how we designed these models and widgets: https://www.phind.com/blog/phind-2-model-creation.

Now that models have gotten much more capable, I'd suggest to give the executing model as much freedom with setting (and even determining) the schema as possible.

> If those features aren't supported by the widget's hard-coded schema, you're out of luck as a user.

Chat paired to the pre-built and on-demand widgets address this limitation.

For example, in the keynote demo, they showed how the chat interface lets you perform advanced filtering that pulls together information from multiple sources, like filtering only Zillow housers near a dog park.

Yes, because it seems that Zillow exposes those specific filters as a part of the input schema. As long as it's a part of the schema, then ChatGPT can generate a useful input to the widget. But my point is that is very brittle.

Isn't that as brittle as any system being constrained to providing only some type of outputs? Please elaborate.

A fully generative UI with on-the-fly schema would be less brittle because you can guarantee that the schema and the intelligent widget can fully satisfy the user’s request. The bottleneck here is the intelligence of the model computing this, but we are already at the point where this is not much of a problem and it will disappear as the models continue to improve.

I think most software will follow this trend and become generated on-demand over the next decade.

> Chat paired to the pre-built and on-demand widgets address this limitation

The only place I can see this working is if the LLM is generating a rich UI on the fly. Otherwise, you're arguing that a text-based UX is going to beat flashy, colourful things.

The problem is not the limitations of the capabilities per se but their discoverability (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discoverability). The user doesn't know what the capabilities are, as they are added and -- infuriatingly -- removed. Google Assistant is a perfect example of this.

Conservational user interfaces are opaque; they lack affordances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance

Thank you for this word. I have felt it my whole life and never learned the exact word.

I immediately knew the last generation of voice assistants was dead garbage when there was no way to know what it could do, they just expected you to try 100 things, until it worked randomly

Voice interfaces actually remind me a lot of command-line interfaces: If you know the a working "rune" on the tip of your tongue (e.g., "Set a timer for 10 mintues", "Play <exact title rune that gets the song you want>") it's great. But as you say, it's not always that easy to figure out new "runes". LLMs should be somewhat better for that, though.

The LLM is phenomenal at figuring out what you want, but it still has to map it to the schema of the tool. So while the job of figuring out the working “rune” is offloaded from you to the LLM, it doesn’t solve the fundamental problem of the available “runes” likely being brittle and insufficient for any given task even when the LLM knows exactly what you want to do.

Yep, this is a big problem as well. If the user doesn't know what features will or won't work, they lose confidence overall.

They don't lack affordances, you can do stuff. They lack signifiers, ie it's not easy to discover the stuff you can do.

Affordance is not what it can do, it is what it signals that it can do. It needs to be perceptible, by the definition I use (Norman's). I see others go by different definitions that even admit hidden affordances. I do not.

From The Design of Everyday Things:

> Affordances represent the possibilities in the world for how an agent (a person, animal, or machine) can interact with something. Some affordances are perceivable, others are invisible. Signifiers are signals. Some signifiers are signs, labels, and drawings placed in the world, such as the signs labeled “push,” “pull,” or “exit” on doors, or arrows and diagrams indicating what is to be acted upon or in which direction to gesture, or other instructions. Some signifiers are simply the perceived affordances, such as the handle of a door or the physical structure of a switch. Note that some perceived affordances may not be real: they may look like doors or places to push, or an impediment to entry, when in fact they are not.

With Norman's definition, if a conversational interface can perform an action, it affords that action. The fact that you don't know that it affords that action means there's a lack of a signifier.

As you say, this is a matter of definition, I'm just commenting on Norman's specific definition from the book.

That’s solved by MCP though. You can update your MCP’s servers schema dynamically without ever having to touch the app itself but the app will be aware of the new schema.

I'm not saying that the schema can't change from time to time, I'm saying that having any fixed schema at request time is not an ideal user experience because it may not be clear what is supported and what is not supported. From first principles, it's much better if the app schema can be created dynamically at request time so we can guarantee that we can fully serve the user's request exactly as they asked it.

I know that AG-UI from copilot kit is in this space. But it hasn't worked well with the MCP model AFAIK

There was a recent post here about how deeply ingrained the chat interface is in OpenAIs organization. This really doubles down on that, but does anyone really like to interact with so much language instead of visual elements? Also feels horrible that you are supposed to remember a bunch of app names like "zillow" and punch them in the chat. And like an opportunity for them to slowly introduce ads for this apps or "preferential discovery", if you will, as monetization strategy.

Personally I don't hope thats the future.

I feel like we're rehashing the debate around whether or not a GUI or terminal is more powerful.

For a large number of tasks that cleanly generalize into a stream of tokens, command line or chat is probably superior. We'll get some affordances like tab auto completion to help remember the name of certain bots or mCP endpoints that can be brought in as needed...

But for anything that involves discovery, graphical interaction feels more intuitive and we'll probably get bespoke interfaces relevant to that particular task at hand with some sort of partially hidden layers to abstract away the token stream?

Very much agreed. I think the dominance of the chat interface to LLMs has materially impaired the general usefulness of these tools — the sooner it goes away the better. It’s almost impossible to explain to a non-engineer how the illusion of a continuous conversation is crafted through context management and why past moments in a conversation might fall out of memory. My general advice to non-technical friends is to create a new conversation for each prompt so that they can get a more deterministic sense of how to formulate instructions and which are successful.

I was really hoping Apple would make some innovations on the UX side, but they certainly haven’t yet.

counterpoint: a lot of people around me just type "zillow" in google to access it, so maybe it's not absurd to refer to it by name in a chat interface

Right, but if you just search for "house listings" you find zillow and redfin and other stuff. Becoming the new word for "listings" will tie specific brands to our use of language in very interesting ways. What happens if I register my app to a common word. In this example, can I take "listings" and astroturf my app to the top? Is this a new DNS "buying all the domains" race?

Sam specifically mentioned apps would go through a vetting process before they were auto-suggested by the chat. So, at least in the early days, I would imagine some of the basic shenanigans will be prevented.

I mean ultimately you’re in OpenAI’s world, they have even more innate control of language, meaning, and truth

Talking about monetization strategy, there is a world where we would not have to remember "Zillow" or "Spotify", and instead ask for real state or music related actions, and have OpenAI "decide" for us what is "the best" options... As in "the option that paid the most to get promoted".

Which post was that?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44573195 (in the article, search for:"Chat runs really deep")

I see a lot of negative comments here but to me, it was obvious this is where OAI should land.

They want to be the platform in which you tell what you want, and OAI does it for you. It's gonna connect to your inbox, calendar, payment methods, and you'll just ask it to do something and it will, using those apps.

This means OAI won't need ads. Just rev share.

> This means OAI won't need ads. Just rev share

If OpenAI thinks there’s sweet, sweet revenue in email and calendar apps, just waiting to be shared, their investors are in for a big surprise.

Zapier has been doing this for how long and no one talks about them like some hot new startup.

Isn't Zapier also doing some AI based automations? But yeah, I will say ChatGPT does have a massive user base.

> This means OAI won't need ads.

Ads are defenitely there. Just hidden so deeply in the black box which is generating the useful tips :)

If you ask it to build a headless frontend web app, it immediately starts generating code with Next.js. I’ve always wondered how it was trained to default to that choice, given the smorgasbord of web frameworks out there. Next.js is solid, but it’s also platform-ware, tightly coupled to commercial interests. I wish there were more bias toward genuinely open-source technologies.

There's probably different ways the LLM converged to it.

One could be for example: from people asking online which tools they should use to build something and being constantly recommended to do it with Next.js

Another could be: how many of the code that was used to train the LLM is done in Next.js

Generally, the answer is probably something along the lines of "next.js is kind of the most popular choice at the time of training".

To me it feels like the default choice in the industry, perhaps it's not and I'm wrong but if I could have that feeling I can see how the AI can as well.

I've never seen next.js in the wild. I have seen plain React plus dotnet, though, a million times.

It is a trap. But once you realise that you are already too deeply invested.

Just append to your prompt "not using a framework developed by a company that supports a genocidal fascist regime"

I wonder what the ad labeling (according to EU law) would look like in that case.

In my (non-lawyer) understanding, each message potentially containing sponsored content (which would be every message, if the bias is encoded in the LLM itself,) would need to be marked as an ad individually.

That would make for an odd user interface.

Because the AI labs are just hovering up all internet text that they can, I've been seeing more and more marketing pilots that deliberately seed marketing material in thousands of fake, AI-generated blogs and tutorials. The intention here is to get new LLMs to train on these huge numbers of associations between specific use cases and the company's product. All in a way that gets their marketing information into the final weights.

You may have started seeing this when LLMs seem to promote things based entirely on marketing claims and not on real-world functionality.

More or less, SEO spam V2.

> This means OAI won't need ads. Just rev share.

They obviously want both. In fact they are already building an ad team.

They have money they have to burn, so it makes sense to throw all the scalable business models in the history, eg app store, algo feed, etc, to the wall and see what stick.

A platform requires a user moat or unfair advantage. Having a better quality model is neither

Consumer LLM apps have moat. As it is, ChatGPT (the app) spends most of its compute on Personal Non work messages (approx 1.9B per day vs 716 for Work)[0]. First, from ongoing conversations that users would return to, then to the pushing of specific and past chat memories, these conversations have become increasingly personalized. Suddenly, there is a lot of personal data that you rely on it having, that make the product better. You cannot just plop over to Gemini and replicate this.

[0] https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w34255/w342...

How's having the best model not a most?

Because it changes all the time. A few weeks ago, it was Gemini 2.5 Pro, then Claude Opus 4.1, GPT-5 Thinking, now maybe Claude Sonnet 4.5, etc[1]. Having a good model isn't enough when they're basically interchangeable now. You need something else.

[1] This is an example. Which model was the best when is not important.

Because it depends on how much better “best” is. If it’s only incrementally better than open source models that have other advantages, why would you bother?

OpenAI’s moat will only come from the products they built on top. Theoretically their products will be better because they’ll be more vertically integrated with the underlying models. It’s not unlike Apple’s playbook with regard to hardwares and software integration.

Don’t they already have ads? I think I’ve seen sponsored results when asking for product recommendations. Maybe misremembering tho.

A bit underwhelming when you see what's actually on offer. "Apps" are really just MCP servers, with an extension to allow returning HTML.

A lot of the fundamental issues with MCP are still present: MCP is pretty single-player, users must "pull" content from the service, and the model of "enabling connections" is fairly unintuitive compared to "opening an app."

Ideally apps would have a dedicated entry point, be able to push content to users, and have some persistence in the UI. And really the primary interface should be HTML, not chat.

As such I think this current iteration will turn out a lot like GPT's.

MCP has this in the spec: it's called "elicitation", and I'm pretty confident this push from OpenAI sets the stage for them to support it.

Once a service can actively involve you and/or your LLM in ongoing interaction, MCP servers start to get real sticky. We can safely assume the install/auth process will also get much less technical as pressure to deliver services to non-technical users increases.

> Once a service can actively involve you and/or your LLM in ongoing interaction

Is there any progress on that front? That would unlock a lot of applications that aren't feasible at the moment.

Edit: Sampling is a piece of the puzzle https://modelcontextprotocol.io/specification/2025-03-26/cli...

I also see a lot of discussion on Github around agent to agent (a2a) capabilities. So it's a big use case, and seems obvious to the people involved with MCP.

And Dropbox is just an FTP server with SVN.

Why does everyone think chat is better UX than traditional interfaces? I get the AI hype, but so many products are not a fit for chat interfaces.

Why would I use a chat to do what could be done quicker with a simple and intuitive button/input UX (e.g. Booking or Zillow search/filter)? Chat also has really poor discoverability of what I can actually do with it.

This x100. This is HCI 101. I'm glad I took that class during my master's program. It opened my eyes to a new world.

This is an interesting branding exercise. Presenting MCP as 'Apps' makes it sound more accessible, while tools and MCP server sound very technical. Add a demo with Expedia and Spotify and you have an MCP that's end-user ready.

Ye, that's basically an MCP server, that can be used by ChatGPT.

This is not just branding, MCP is an implementation detail; the product is chatting with apps.

It’s remarkable that will inevitably rush to build free apps that only reinforce OpenAI’s moat while cannibilizing their own opportunities.

When the iPhone came out, there were like 6 apps, and no app store.

In 2024, iOS App Store generated $1.3T in revenue, 85% of which went to developers.

Will this have a revenue share / marketplace built into it?

> Will this have a revenue share / marketplace built into it?

I'm genuinely surprised these companies went with usage-based versus royalty pricing.

Altman mentioned an App Store is coming

That figure sounds way too high

Edit: yes I understand it is correct, but still it sounds like an insane amount

They're confusing "sales facilitates by the app store" with sales from the app store itself.

That 1T figure is real, but it includes things like if you buy a refrigerator using the Amazon iOS app.

Yeah, the article itself even lists the reality at about 20% of the 1.3T.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apples-app-store-generated-ne...

It's true, though.

It is now evident why Flash was murdered.

Because it was buggy, known for security holes and the single biggest source of application crashes in all software in the late 90's through early 00's.

you missed the "it drained battery like there was no tomorrow" argument.

I never really used it detached from a wall... mostly from work projects.

[flagged]

Drank the kool-aid?!? I worked in the eLearning space, I was a prominent user and developer for Flash/Flex content... there was some interesting tooling for sure, I also completely disabled it on my home computers as a result of working with it.

I had a lot of hopes after the Adobe buyout that Flash would morph into something based around ActionScript (ES4) and SVG. That didn't happen. MS's Silverlight/XAML was close, but I wasn't going to even consider it without several cross-platform version releases.

>I was a prominent user and developer for Flash/Flex content

I was as well. It wasn't as bad as people describe it. It was an amazing platform, HTML5 just recently caught up.

In retrospective, Adobe should have open sourced it.

>MS's Silverlight/XAML was close

Hahahahahha, yeah sure! That tells me everything I need to know.

I agree it should have been open-sourced (at least the player portion)...

As for Silverlight, I mean the technology itself was closer to where I wanted to see Flash go. I'm not sure why you're laughing at that.

edit: as for not being as bad as people describe it... you could literally read any file on the filesystem... that's a pretty bad "sandbox" ... It was fixed later, but there were different holes along the way, multiple times.

> We now know why Flash was murdered

This is a stupid conspiracy given Apple decided not to support Flash on iPhone since before Jobs came around on third-party apps. (The iPhone was launched with a vision of Apple-only native apps and HTML5 web apps. The latter's performance forced Cupertino's hand into launching the App Store. Then they saw the golden goose.)

You ignore the state of things back then.

HTML5 was new and not widely supported, the web was WAY more fragmented back then, to put things in perspective, Internet Explorer still had the largest market share, by far. The only thing that could provide the user with a rich interactive experience was Flash, it was also ubiquitous.

Flash was the biggest threat to Apple's App Store; this wasn't a conspiracy, it was evident back then but I can see why it is not evident to you in 2025. Jobs open letter was just a formal declaration of war.

> HTML5 was new and not widely supported

Yes. It was a bad bet on the open web by Apple. But it was the one they took when they decided not to support Flash with the original iPhone's launch.

> Flash was the biggest threat to Apple's App Store

Flash was not supported since before there was an App Store. Since before Apple deigned to tolerate third-party native apps.

You can argue that following the App Store's launch, Apple's choice to not start supporting Flash was influenced by pecuinary interests. But it's ahistoric to suggest the reason for the original decision was based on interests Cupertino had ruled out at the time.

what's their moat that you refer to?

This is nonsense. Why would they destroy the incentive to get real-time, live data and MCP actions that help their users?

Connecting these apps will, at times, require authentication. Where it does not require payment, it's a fantastic distribution channel.

I don't understand, what could be built with this platform that wouldn't be made obsolete by conceivable updates to ChatGPT?

Another commenter suggested a hotel search function:

> Find me hotels in Capetown that have a pool by the beach .Should cost between 200 dollars to 800 dollars a night

ChatGPT can already do this. Similarly, their own pizza lookup example seems like it would exist or nearly exist with current functionality. I can't think of a single non-trivial app that could be built on this platform - and if there are any, I can't think of any that would be useful or not in immediate danger of being swallowed by advances to ChatGPT.

ChatGPT can only do this now because the information is essentially freely available. Booking.com etc post their pages on the web to get traffic. In the world OpenAI is imagining, people will rarely if ever interact with the internet directly, it’ll instead all be through intermediary LLMs. In that world, the organisations that own authoritative information about hotel prices and locations will not make that freely available to LLMs, they will sell it. ChatGPT is trying to get ahead by encouraging them to embed themselves directly into their platform so they get first dibs on this kinda stuff before they put up the walls.

> Find me hotels in Capetown that have a pool by the beach .Should cost between 200 dollars to 800 dollars a night

I built this 18 months ago at an OTA platform. We parse the query and identify which terms are locations, which are hotel features, which are room amenities etc. Then we apply those filters (we have thousands of attributes that can be filtered on, but cannot display all of them in the UI) and display the hotel search results in the regular UI. The input query is also through the normal search box.

This does not need and should not be done in a chatbot UX. All the implementation is on the backend and the right display is the already existing UI. This is semantic search and it comes as a standard capability in ElasticSearch, Supabase etc. Though we built our own version.

We built something like this too (in a different field), but it's actually quit hard to deal with all the edge cases that people might want to search for:

e.g. if the user asks "Find hotels in Capetown [...] that have availability for this christmas or new year": if your backend, or the response format that you're forcing the LLM to give, doesn't have the ability to do an OR on the date range, you can't give results that the user wants, so the LLM tries to do as best it can, and the user ends up getting only hotels which are available for both Christmas and new year (thus missing some that have availability for one or the other), or the LLM does some other unwanted thing. For us, users would even ask "June or August", and then got July included because that was the closest thing the backend / UI could do.

So this approach is actually less flexible than a chat interface, where the LLM can figure out "Ah, I need to do two separate hotel search MCP calls, and then merge the results to not show the same hotel twice".

We didn't support the time dimensions, but I think it could be done without too much issue. You suggest displaying search results in a chat interface but that doesn't work because there are easily hundreds of hotel results for most searches. The user would need to click on a thumbnail in chat into the list of search results on the OTA.

You want it in a chat with other tools and intelligence so that you can give softer preferences and for it to judge reviews and the like. Perhaps even look at the room layout and photos to see if it is something you would like. There are good reasons to surround the tool you describe with AI.

I don't think such massive amounts of text should be parsed at runtime. Hotels can have 100s or 1000s of reviews. We batch created attributes for hotels based on reviews, and when a semantic search was run, those attributes were matched.

There are multiple branches they are exploring. This is a more structured one. But they also work on Agents that load the website and produce clicks to do the task. Also, this requires hand design, but they also work on generating the gui just-in-time, based on context.

They also have this new design gui for visual programming of agents, with boxes and arrows.

It's going to be a hybrid of all these. Obviously the more explicit work done for interoperability, the easier it is, but the gaps can be bridged with the common sense of the AI at the expense of more time and compute. It's like, a self driving car can detect red lights and speed limit signs via cameras but if there are structured signals in smart infrastructure, then it's simpler and better.

But it's always interesting to see this dance between unstructured and structured. Apparently any time one gets big, the other is needed. When theres tons of structured code, we want AI common sense to cut through it because even if it's structured, it's messy and too complicated. So we generate the code. Now if we have natural language code generators we want to impose structure onto how they work, which we express in markup languages, then small scripts, then large scripts that are too complex and have too much boilerplate so we need AI to generate it from natural language etc etc

There’s an incredibly long tail of profitable software business that would like to have a dynamic presence on ChatGPT that OpenAI would never have any interest in stealing. OpenAI wants to be the entry point to the internet, much like Google has been for the last couple decades.

+1

ChatGPT’s generic search will not be that good compared to apps specialized in this.

I tried buying a special kind of lamp this weekend, all LLMs and google sucked at this. The conversation did not help in finding more fine grained results.

Why doing it themselves instead of distributing the work to data owners?

This is part of the fight regarding whether we will have utility apps inside the chat app or chatboxes inside the utility apps. Obviously OpenAI would prefer that they are in the driver seat and delegate to passive apps, while regular apps like Booking would prefer to be the app the user uses and to run an AI chatbox nested inside their own app UI, so they can swap it out etc.

Convenience-wise probably this model is more viable, and things will get centralized to the AI apps. And the nested utilities will be walled gardens on steroids. Using custom software and general computing (in the manner of the now discontinued sideloading on Android) will get even further away for the average person.

They also released ChatKit today for building in-app chat UI experiences, so it seems like OpenAI is trying to make sure they get a larger slice of the pie no matter which interaction model wins.

In 2018, I founded a startup specializing in chatbot for events. At the time the platforms were Alexa Skills, Actions on Google, and Messenger Platform (and LINE Bot, for people in Asia). I guess what's old is new again, but with fancier tech.

This time will be different?

We've actually got systems that can understand English now. Chatbots don't have to be glorified regular expression matches or based on inferior NLP. I've thought more than once that the true value of LLMs could well be that they essentially solve the language comprehension problem and that their ability to consume language is relatively underutilized compared to our attempts to get them to produce language. Under all the generative bling their language comprehension and ability to package that into something that conventional computing can understand is pretty impressive. They've even got a certain amount of common sense built in.

Yeah this seems accurate to me. All the talk of a bubble etc, but LLMs see genuinely useful at tasks like this and I'm sure we'll find more uses as time goes on.

Chatbots with and without GPT is like comparing a car with round vs triangular wheels

Sure absolutely NO difference this time. Say it 100 times and maybe reality will change.

You can’t think of anything that’s changed in the Chatbot space since 2018?

Do people even want chatbots for events?

I personally prefer well curated information.

"I personally prefer well curated information."

The LLM will do the curation.

It's poetic that Google attempted to pursue apps within Google Assistant years ago, but the vision of apps within an AI assistant is more feasible now with LLMs that (whether actually or not) understand arbitrary user intents and more flexible connectors to third party apps via MCP (and a viral platform with 700+ million weekly active users).

Custom GPTs (and Gemini gems) didn't really work because they didn't have any utility outside the chat window. They were really just bundled prompt workflows that relied on the inherent abilities of the model. But now with MCP, agent-based apps are way more useful.

I believe there's a fundamentally different shift going on here: in the endgame that OpenAI, Anthropic et al. are racing toward, there will be little need for developers for the kinds of consumer-facing apps that OpenAI appears to be targeting.

OpenAI hinted at this idea at the end of their Codex demo: the future will be built from software built on demand, tailored to each user's specific needs.

Even if one doesn't believe that AI will completely automate software development, it's not unreasonable to think that we can build deterministic tooling to wrap LLMs and provide functionality that's good enough for a wide range of consumer experiences. And when pumping out code and architecting software becomes easy to automate with little additional marginal cost, some of the only moats other companies have are user trust (e.g. knowing that Coursera's content is at least made by real humans grounded in reality), the ability to coordinate markets and transform capital (e.g. dealing with three-sided marketplaces on DoorDash), switching costs, or ability to handle regulatory burdens.

The cynic in me says that today's announcements are really just a stopgap measure to: - Further increase the utility of ChatGPT for users, turning it into the de facto way of accessing the internet for younger users à la how Facebook was (is?) in developing countries - Pave the way for by commoditizing OpenAI's complements (traditional SaaS apps) as ChatGPT becomes more capable as a platform with first-party experiences - Increase the value of the company to acquire more clout with enterprises and other business deals

But cynicism aside, this is pretty cool. I think there's a solid foundation here for the kind of intent-based, action-oriented computing that I think will benefit non-technical people immensely.

I can't understand the documentation. How are the interactive elements embedded in the chat? Are they just iFrames?

The docs mention returning resources, and the example is returning a rust file as a resource, which is nonsensical.

This seems similar to MCP UI in result but it's not clear how it works internally.

An MCP server exposes tools that a model can call during a conversation and returns results according to the tool contracts. Those results can include extra metadata—such as inline HTML—that the Apps SDK uses to render rich UI components (widgets) alongside assistant messages.

More: https://github.com/openai/openai-apps-sdk-examples?tab=readm...

Imagine rendering content from an app with user submitted data.

If the connector is enabled by the prompt or via a UI interaction, it calls your MCP server. They have created some meta fields your tool can respond with, one of which is something about producing a widget along with a field for html.

In the current implementation, it makes an iframe (or webview on native) that loads a sandboxed environment which then gets another iframe with your html injected. Your html can include meta field whitelisted remote resources.

Does anyone think small players (like an independent developer) will be accepted ? Sounds like it will only for the big whales

Glad to see no AGI hubris in this presentation, but we also haven’t see anything groundbreaking: their own version of GUI plugins, their own version of a workflow builder, and an aspiration to take cut of every transaction on the web.

I hope their GUI integration will be eventually superseded by native UI integration. I remember such well thought out concepts dating back to 2018 (https://uxdesign.cc/redesigning-siri-and-adding-multitasking...).

AGI is so last year. Now it's all ASI which is great because it was achieved in like 1968 or something so nobody trying to achieve it can possibly fail

it's funny to see lay people and some CEOs AGI this AGI that in the past 5 years and actual tech people know that it's very irrelevant to what's happening right now.

We have been building MCP servers and this looks very good directionally. Fills a bunch of holes in the protocol and gives meaning to something that were kind of like placeholders. Being able to return UI to the client is fantastic and will make lots of things possible. We have been working on these kinds of things assuming that the clients would improve to meet us.

https://lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?2122

This is honestly useful.

"Find me hotels in Capetown that have a pool by the beach .Should cost between 200 dollars to 800 dollars a night "

I would not want to use LLMs for such a thing like that. Something like SQL queries or other kind of computer codes would be better. You would have to read the documentation, but it can be specified more precisely and more accurately. If you have a local program that can manage these queries (and then convert them to the remote service's format; a service could provide a file to specify the schema and the estimated cost of different fields) and interact with multiple services (including local files), then that will be better, without having to worry about problems with OpenAI, require as much power that OpenAI uses, more privacy violations than is necessary, etc.

However, it might be useful for people who do want to use that instead.

[injected with guerilla ads]

I don't see how this is a significant upgrade over the many existing hotel-finder tools. At best it slightly augments them as a first pass, but I would still rather look at an actual map of options than trust a stream of generated, ad-augmented text.

The benefit I see is that it meets users where they presumable already are (GPT). As other comments allude to here, it's clear they see themselves as a staple of the user's online experience.

exactly. Booking.com etc can just use OpenAI APIs to enable a similar voice/ chat interface on top of their search, and then the UX is not limited to 'cards'.

The UI 'cards' will naturally becoming ever increasing, and soon you end up back with a full app within ChatGPT or ChatGPT just becomes an app launcher.

The only advantage I can see is if ChatGPT can use data from other apps/ chats in your searches e.g. find me hotels in NYC for my upcoming trip (and it already knows the types of hotels you like, your budget and your dates)

I think the end game is that rather than spitting out text back, the LLM transforms your plaintext request to something processable, and then chooses some relevant widgets to display the results.

I think the future is that models will not be able to answer that well, because sites will move to protect their data/content.

Instead, the model will provide you with a list of (in chat) “apps” that can fulfill your request. SEO becomes AISO (AI Search Optimization). Sites can partly expose data to entice you to choose them.

This really feels like a missed opportunity to build something genuinely new, something that actually plays to the strengths of LLMs, instead of just embedding a fixed set of app screens inside chat.

Ideally, users should be able to describe a task, and the AI would figure out which tools to use, wire them together, and show the result as an editable workflow or inline canvas the user can tweak. Frameworks like LlamaIndex’s Workflow or LangGraph already let you define these directed graphs manually in Python where each node can do something specific, branch, or loop. But the AI should be able to generate those DAGs on the fly, since it’s just code underneath.

And given that LLMs are already quite good at generating UI code and following a design system (see v0.app), there’s not much reason to hardcode screens at all. The model can just create and adapt them as needed.

Really hope Google doesn’t follow OpenAI down this path.

Actually these giant companies have proven innovation is impossible. Any company that tries just gets stepped on by the bigger papa company stealing their idea and putting them out of business.

(Also read the documentation, they specifically mention that you can tell it to create new flow paths)

Tencent already has this with WeChat.Good to see it on chatgpt finally

Ads. They created ads. Now (or eventually) they can charge app developers to be featured first for a specific use case.

How else would the company sell their product? and keep people employed.

Of course ads will be there and this is good. A bad thing would be if they took a bunch of traffic from google and then gave no way to promote your products.

That would lead to companies closing and layoffs and economy decline.

Just to clarify, my original comment was neutral about whether its a good or a bad thing. It was just a statement of observation.

Ads was always the end goal, they have an opportunity to become a bigger player than Google in the ad space.

Instead of the user wasting time, ChatGpt can come up with the recommendations.

They're looking like Facebook did with their phone project and later the metaverse - too big for their britches.

Lmfao..you've reminded me of the phone they made with HTC that had a Facebook button .

We've already sorta come full circle with the Meta glasses having a physical button to interact with the Facebook AI

Anyone able to get this to work?

Lots of folks (myself included) are reporting it doesn't: https://github.com/openai/openai-apps-sdk-examples/issues/1

Everything openai releases never work in the first days/weeks/ever. We won't be replaced by AI anytime soon.

Seems wild to have an App SDK for a technology that's 1. supposed to free us from purpose-built APIs and interfaces, and 2. comprised entirely of a single textbox. Feels perhaps more like a MS-type strategy of standards and formal rules intended to lock down the extended ecosystem?

I think they want businesses to be more tightly integrated with ChatGPT to open up future opportunities for monetization.

Remember "GPTs" and the thing before it which I don't even remember now. I think this will go the same route .. to nowhere

The GPT App Store (which is technically now obsolete with this SDK) was funny.

Are they still expecting us to get paid based on “revenue sharing”?

remember when custom GPTs would just need an OpenAPI spec to be compatible with any existing API out there? we've been through this app store journey once before, maybe it's different this time since we now have agents and MCP

Why would I want to enable OpenAI to collect an Apple Tax from me down the road?

Sure, this helps app partners access their large user base and grows their functionality too - but the end game has to be lock-in with a 30% tax right?

For the same reason everyone's fine with an Epic tax down the road. It costs you nothing today.

I wonder if I have just seen the future. A movement away from mobile apps (and some aspects of websites), to apps in an AI model?

Can’t say I'm unhappy to see the authoritarian duopoly of the existing app stores challenged.

One question that comes to mind is how will multiple providers of similar products and services be recommended/discovered? Perhaps they wont be recommended, but just listed instead as currently done by search engines. Is AISO our future - AI Search Optimization?

Developers, developers, developers!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fcSviC7cRM&t=34s

Hey Sam that's a mighty fine moat you just put up around your castle Or wall if you like that metaphor better.

While Apps do sound and look like the future, I feel like we're headed down the same road as the App and Google Play stores with this. Sooner or later OpenAI is going to use this to take a cut $$ of the payments going through the system. Which they most likely need and deserve, but still any time you close off part of the web it makes the web less open and free.

This feels like the death of the app, and the rise of the micro-app.

It's funny how OpenAI announced Apps SDK without the SDK. Anyway, we was so excited to get my hands dirty that we built our own SDK: https://github.com/fractal-mcp/sdk

this seems kinda silly, especially given their previous app store flop. but I'm just happy there's some spark and competition in tech again. it's felt like the industry has been pretty stagnant since web 2.0 (more stagnant than any other time in the last 40-50 years, anyway). but this AI stuff feels like another "1977 Trinity" moment

so, best of luck to OAI. we'll see how this plays out

Honestly I see how somebody like kayak.com would build a "app" they work through commission, they don't care from where is the booking coming from. But they will sort the flight tickets based where do they earn the best commission. What's in there for me as a user ?. Also will openai let different providers pay for the top placement when somebody tries to buy ticket on chatgpt ?

Discovery, monetization. What is in it for developers?

deploying an app to 700M people?

Not only do you get to deploy your app to 700M users; you also get to provide responsive support for every single one of them!

Per the docs: 'Every app comes from a verified developer who stands behind their work and provides responsive support'

That's thinly veiled corporate speak for, Fortune 500 or GTFO

That's like saying making a website is like deploying an app for 7B people.

Sure, but deploying a website or app doesn't mean anyone's going to use it, does it?

I could make an iOS app, I could make a website, I could make a ChatGPT app... if no one uses it, it doesn't matter how big the userbase of iOS, the internet, or ChatGPT is...

Right this same sleight of hand is encoded in the language used in the announcement to make building on this platform to be attractive seeming.

Well, if you don't make it nobody would use it for sure.

I really think this is Open AIs opening the eco system moment which is equivalent to google opening up Android or facebook allowing gaming platforms like zynga to grow on their platform.

To me it seems like a strategic shift from pure AI research and the AGI snake oil to other supposed tangible stuff.

In short, the AI revolution is mostly over, and we seem to be back in the realm of software.

Chat offers a far better experience than using Google—no more searching through spam-filled results, clicking between sponsored links, accepting endless cookie banners, and trying to read a tiny bit of useful content buried among ads and clutter.

It has the potential to bridge the gap between pure conversation and the functionality of a full website.

I’m just worried they we’ll go from very obvious advertising to advertising that’s a lot harder to spot.

I can block adds on a search engine. I cannot prevent an LMM from having hidden biases about what the best brand of vodka or car is.

I agree. But Google has gone in that direction long ago: ads are now harder to distinguish from genuine search results. In many cases, the organic results are buried so deep that they don’t even appear in the first visible section of the page anymore.

Google could also have allowed invisible pay-for-placement without marking it as an ad. Presumably they didn't do that because undermining the perceived trustworthiness of their search results would have been a net loss. I wonder if chat will go in that same direction or not.

Pretty sure it's illegal to present advertisement and not label it as such in some form.

But as with everything, as new technologies emerge, you can devise legal loopholes that don't totally apply to you and probably need regulation before it's decided that "yeah, actually, that does apply to me".

Just let the AI control my mouse and keyboard, let it use my device like a human. There's a huge swath of software already designed to be used by humans and anyone who uses ChatGPT knows that it's already been trained on every scrap of knowledge on how to use any existing complex software.

I’ve still yet to see how this improves anything? I saw someone mentioning it can use Spotify. Okay but like so can older gen assistants. Seems like they’re just trying to sell a much more expensive way of doing something that already exists.

Do the examples work for any else?

https://github.com/openai/openai-apps-sdk-examples/issues/1

That’s a great idea and Im wondering if Telegram can follow this path too, since they’re so advanced in mobile UX / UI, constantly updating their app and have some kind of crypto payments support.

This is them trying to build ChatGPT into platform, from which they will take some portion of revenue generated by these apps...hmm where have I seen this before.

I think voice or chat is the best interface for AI tools because you don’t need to learn how to use them. We already do it every day.

What is the incentive for developers to build apps for this platform? I don't see any way of monetizing them at all.

fear of missing out, as always, be the first flappy bird in the store.

Your SaaS / Business is my Tool

Soon they'll start serving ads, you just know they're eying Google's lunch

One interesting I found, the docs, is using Astro Starlight.

If only this somehow resulted in fewer, better apps. <sigh>

lol, their github is filled with "got the same issue" comments, imaging debugging and teaching your users how to use a blackbox

Openai knows how to create models but is terrible at creating software

i think it's easy to hire experienced engineers these days, not so easy with ML devs, so looking forward to see how this works out for them. I am actually happy to see anything that OpenAI does, it brings more work to me :)

chat is the best interface for information retrieval and REPL-like experiences. for all the rest, chat is horrible.

Is it just me, or does it seem odd that if you truly believed AGI would be achieved within a few years, you wouldn’t launch an app store for AI apps? I don’t think an app store makes any sense in a post-AGI world.

1GK AMD chips will accelerate

“Build our platform for us!”

This is a great idea.

This feels like a fever dream. As a developer everything changes every week. A new model, a new tool, a new sdk, paradigm we have to learn. I'm getting tired of all that shit.

As a JS developer for over 10 years who has seen multiple hype waves, here is my advice: You don't need to ride the first wave. You can wait until technology matures and see if it has staying power.

For example, React and TypeScript were hard to set up initially. I deferred learning them for years until the tooling improved and they were clearly here to stay. Likewise, I'm glad I didn't dive into tech like LangChain and CoffeeScript, which came and went.

when did that happen for you with React? 10 years ago was 2015 right around the time it started getting popular if I remember correctly (I wasn't a professional yet back then) so I am curious what was the point at which you decided the tooling improved. As a still junior dev I would love to know how to see determine things like that

10 years ago React was actually much simpler and easier (and faster) than today

LangChain has gone? I thought it was still around.

It's still around, but the hype has faded. Users discovered numerous issues with the project and began abandoning it. I remember one month when everyone was all, "LangChain is the future," and another month when the sentiment became: "LangChain is terrible."

You can see the hype cycle's timeline in HN's Algolia search: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

It is but I feel it's main value prop as a developer friendly abstraction layer has been very well solved for by the actual model providers themselves, while LangChain itself have become more bloated, clunky, and to under-opinionated.

This is how I feel about Rust.

The big hype wave has finished now (we still have the "how dare you criticise our technology bros" roaming around though), the tooling is maturing now. It's almost time for me to actually get my feet wet with it :)

Who says you have to learn this? You are free to ignore it if it's overwhelming.

I'd much rather see a thriving ecosystem full of competition and innovation than a more stagnant alternative.

With what exactly? They are desperately trying to create a "marketplace" and become gatekeepers on the backs of developers and businesses alike. There's no innovation here.

I guess what’s implied is that developers and businesses would innovate, not OpenAI directly.

Knowing OAI's history, only big whales could survive being copied by the platform's owner—case in point: Amazon Basics. They're so big that most of the time, SMBs can't escape them and don't have a choice but to cave to Amazon's demands. Is your product successful? Great, I'll copy you, add the "Amazon basics" label, and start bombarding users with my "product".

Amazon basics is a private label just like Costco and the Kirkland Brand. Same thing with Walmart, Target, Trader Joes, etc. And if these SMBs don't have to deal with Amazon, they will have to deal with a dozen copycats from China for anything that becomes a hit.

Please check how Amazon Basics works and what SMBs are saying.

For me the most annoying thing is APIs arbitrarily changing all the time. Completely change the entire Tailwind, ESLint, AWS SDK, etc APIs every 6 months? Why not! Heaven forbid you don't touch a project for a few months, blink and all your code is outdated.

You just point your AI agent at the docs and have it build the integration with your app for you :)

On a more serious note, it remains to be seen if this even sticks / is widely embraced.

Just get an LLM to do it for you.

The question is, whether having UI in chatgpt a game changer, fundamentally?

nothing really changed much here though. re llms nothing really has changed either, its mostly just scaling. there is really not much to learn as a consumer and app builder.

Specialize, escape, or accept.

Like "Abort, Retry, Fail"? And same as there, what's the difference between the first and the third? Is there a way of accepting a new sdk every week without specializing?

Specializing means bypassing the problem. Accepting means welcoming or acquiescing.

I don't understand, how can you acquiesce to a situation whereby "As a developer everything changes every week"? Not even the most "on the bleeding edge" JS developers can switch frameworks every week, and the pace is continuously accelerating. As I see it, the only way to stay sane and productive is to specialize to a sub-area where you can stick to a technology for at (the very) least 3 months.

Welcome to technology

OpenAI launched an App Store in Nov 2023. A 23 month turnaround from major feature launch, to deprecation, to relaunch is a commitment to product longevity that’d put Google to shame.

I found it genuinely impressive how useless their "GPTs" were.

Of course, part of it was due to the fact that the out-of-the-box models became so competent that there was no need for a customized model, especially when customization boiled down to barely more than some kind of custom system prompt and hidden instructions. I get the impression that's the same reason their fine-tuning services never took off either, since it was easier to just load necessary information into the context window of a standard instance.

Edit: In all fairness, this was before most tool use, connectors or MCP. I am at least open to the idea that these might allow for a reasonable value add, but I'm still skeptical.

    > I get the impression that's the same reason their fine-tuning services never took off either

> fine tuning because the work was repetitive enough that FT provided benefits in terms of speed and accuracy,

can you share anymore info on this. i am curious about what the usecase was and how it improved speed (of inference?) and accuracy.

Very typical e-commerce use cases processing scraped content: product categorization, review sentiment, etc. where the scope is very limited. We would process tens of thousands of these so faster inference with a cheaper model with FT was advantageous.

Disclaimer: this was in the 3.5 Turbo "era" so models like `nano` now might be cheap enough, good enough, fast enough to do this even without FT.

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product roadmap was also ai generated

So it’s take 2 for Open AI’s App Store moment. But this time surfing Anthropic’s MCP wave. Smart interop.. or just chasing the cool kids?

mcp was a dud

What is the superior way for an LLM to interact with your product?

llm can call my existing apis fine. curious what kind of problems you are running to with your existing apis?

I want LLM chat integration with my product.

So far, it seems that if you give an LLM a few tools to create projects and other entities, they seem to be very good at using them. The user gets the option of chat driven ui for our app, with not that much work for limited features.

Currently building internal MCP servers to make that easy. But I can imagine having a public one in the future.

Tool calling is one of at least 5 core features of MCP

ok but not sure why i need to build an mcp for my product if llms can already call my existing apis ?

If you are not sure, you don't need it. If you get to understand the usefulness of MCP, then you might find a use for it.

well i was responding to person who was asking me "what a better way over mcp" to interact with your product. looks like you inserted yourself with your usual one line non sequiturs. BOT.

Person you were responding to here. You do have a solid point/question. To be completely honest: my original thinking was that for once, I am going to go with the flow on something like this. I often fight inertia, but this felt like a bad thing to do it on.

Now, I realize that the best argument for MCP vs function calls in my case, is that I want to allow external products/agents/chatbots to interface with my app. MCP is that standard. I will implement very carefully, but that's what I need to do.

People prefer no ads, that's why its easy to dip into chatgpt get a good enough answer and avoid the rest of the enshitification of every website.

I guess openai is trying to execute the google playbook?

I'll bet $100 they're seeing an opportunity to dethrone Google as the entrance point to the web and this is a big part of it.

It feels like OpenAI's mission has changed from "We want to do do AGI" to

"it'll be easier to do AGI with a lot of money, so let's make a lot of money first" to

"we have a shot at becoming bigger than Google and stealing their revenue. Let's do that and maybe do AGI if that ever works out"

I don’t think openai is that goal oriented around AGI whatever their posturing may be. They have to cash in eventually and are probably trying to figure out a pathway to a viable business.

I agree with you. Just disappointing that it's just another company slowly abandoning their mission in favor of profits.

They promised AGI and delivered SDKs. I think I'm gonna skip this one..

Hey don't sell them short, they also delivered a TikTok clone with vertically integrated slop generation. It's the 5D Chess path to AGI, they just need to rot the average human brain until the bar for super-human intelligence is reduced to an attainable level.

This was funny

Wow.

“CEO” Fidji Simo must really need something to do.

Maybe I’m cynical about all of this, but it feels like a whole lot of marketing spin for an MCP standard.

Yeah... no. I'm going to pass. The premise is bad from any angle. In the case of businesses, why "create" another "Amazon" and compete with other brands when the focus should be on getting customers through my sales funnel? For developers is much worse since they are going to copy Amazon's model with brands that found a niche: Amazon Basics. In this case, it'll be OpenAI "core" (or something like that), where you do all the work, and when your "app" is somewhat famous enough or getting traction, they'll copy it, rebrand it, and bombard all old and new customers to use it instead of yours.

I'mma call it now just for the fun of it: This will go the way of their "GPT" store.

Companies like OpenTable that make money on the backend for connecting you with the restaurant will happily partner with OpenAI on this.

There are plenty of brokers that will add immense value to ChatGPT for free and if users go there looking for something, it's only a matter of time.

Right now, I only like using the chat interface to answer questions I can't quite form into searches, but I also don't go directly to a chat bot to book dinner reservations. However, if I'm using the service to riff on ideas for a romantic thing to do with my partner, and it somehow leads me to resturant reservations, I do think I would engage with it and come back to ChatGPT in the future for novel interactions like that.

Oh, I guess tomorrow when American HQs come online we will get some new shiny thing barely tested that needs to be deployed in production ASAP. Or maybe there is already something waiting for me in Slack...

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The skepticism is understandable given the trajectory of GPTs and custom instructions, but there's a meaningful technical difference here: the Apps SDK is built on the Model Context Protocol (MCP), which is an open specification rather than a proprietary format.

MCP standardizes how LLM clients connect to external tools—defining wire formats, authentication flows, and metadata schemas. This means apps you build aren't inherently ChatGPT-specific; they're MCP servers that could work with any MCP-compatible client. The protocol is transport-agnostic and self-describing, with official Python and TypeScript SDKs already available.

That said, the "build our platform" criticism isn't entirely off base. While the protocol is open, practical adoption still depends heavily on ChatGPT's distribution and whether other LLM providers actually implement MCP clients. The real test will be whether this becomes a genuine cross-platform standard or just another way to contribute to OpenAI's ecosystem.

The technical primitives (tool discovery, structured content return, embedded UI resources) are solid and address real integration problems. Whether it succeeds likely depends more on ecosystem dynamics than technical merit.