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I'm a tabla player in (classical) training (still noob though). One of my favorite tala is called "Sardha Roopak", and it's a cycle of 10.5 beats which is trippy. There are other X.5 beat cycles as well.
Here's a video of someone playing a tabla solo in 10.5 beats
I first heard L. Shankar playing against a 9.5 beat tala, and the concept blew my mind. In western terms, it means that the relationship between the rythm and melody (plus any harmony if there is any) shifts 0.5 beats every cycle: for one cycle, the rythm may feel ahead, or on time, and for the next it may feel on time, or late. It's a fascinating technique that I think has no true analog in western music.
It is true that many forms of african-derived music in the US will shift the precise position of beats to create swing/syncopation/dilla-time, but this is generally done on a per-note basis, not on a per-cycle basis as happens with a half-beat tala.
Perhaps I am not conceptualizing this right, but it sounds to me like it is basically a hemiola, which can be found in a lot of western music, albeit not much in classical or pop. If you listen to math rock or stuff like meshuggah though, its all over the place.
Typically in music theory, we would talk about a hemiola as a rhythmic technique in which a rhythm in a simple (2) metric division is introduced in the context of a compound (3) division of the beat, or vice versa.
What the parent post describes isn't an isolated gesture like that, but a sustained state of overlapping meters, if I'm understanding correctly. In the case of the ICM described, as well as math rock/meshuggah/etc, I would describe the technique as "Polymetric" or maybe a "Sustained polyrhythm," and not a hemiola.
Gotcha, so does share structure with some niche western music but hemiola is kot quite the right term for it.
> It's a fascinating technique that I think has no true analog in western music.
Closest thing I could think of would be pieces like Piano Phase by Steve Reich.
I like teen thal and allochotal (not sure of spelling). What really blew me away was listening to zakir Hussein speaking drums, there's some very well developed verbalization of percussion that is a form of poetry I'm not sure what it's called.
Teen taal definitely, everyone loves that. Usually the first taal people begin to learn playing. I think you mean "ada chautaal"?
Yes the verbalization is called the "bol". "Bol" in hindi means things like "word", "speak", "lyrics", etc. Indian classical musicians don't use sheet music, so they have to orally pass down their teachings. The bol that Zakir Hussain (and all other tabla players) say _are_ the notes that they play. Word for word/note for note. Each sound on the tabla has its own name, which is expressed as an onomatopoeia like "dhin". Then you can verbalize the percussion you're about to play.
https://youtu.be/e8tfg2GBYP8?t=1549
Here's a great composition being verbalized, explained, and played by Zakir Hussain and his brother.
The track I'm thinking of is Raag Bhimpalasi (from the excellent album, "Ravi Shankar: Sounds of India") which seems to be ada chautaal.
Thanks, I've been looking for that video.
> there's some very well developed verbalization of percussion
It's called bol[1] in Hindustani music, and koṉṉakkōl[2] in Carnatic music. The basic 4-count syllables are 'na dhin dhin na' in the former, and 'ta ka dhi mi' in the latter.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bol_(music)
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konnakol
Both are easily heard and seen performed by live musicians in the archetypal North and South Indian dance forms, Kathak and Bharatanatyam respectively.
For the life of me I couldn't cope with western bar notations especially regarding polyrhythms/polymeters trying to follow accents and groupings ... it gets unwieldy
So in the spirit of "pass the goddamn butter" [0] I was introduced to konnakol via this book [1] some time ago. There seems to be a lot of truth in the the notion: "if you can say it you can play it". Once I can "vocalize it" it is way easier to translate that into the instrument itself. It is very intuitive to learn this e.g. the "takadimi" route.
[A pretty fun dissection of a Meshuggah song with the help of konnakol.][2]
[0]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1NI4QAh_V3w
[1]https://www.amazon.com/You-Can-Ta-This-Precision/dp/19300800...
I think you are exactly correct. My big revelation in graduate school (music performance) was the idea that vocalizations of music "short circuit" our learning process and tend to get a performer closer to what we'd call an "expressive" or "musical" rendition. Notated music's function is simply to give a systematic way to for people to reproduce/recreate an aural experience, but it is a "lossy" format that western classical musicians have to spend years training in performance practice and interpretation to adequately recapture the expressive elements that are not easy to capture in notation but are vital for engaging performances.
I'm a Hindi speaker in training, but not music theory. I'm curious what they're named for?
Quoting the article:
> For instance, Teentaal (16 beats) is made up of four sections of four beats each, while Ektaal (12 beats) is made up of six sections of two beats each.
why is 'three rhythm' four beats/bar (and four bars repeating) and 'one rhythm' two (six)?
It’s the number of claps that matter.
Teentaal: there’s a clap on beats 1,4 and 12. No clap on 9. Ektaak: Just one clap on the first beat.
There are two major Indian classical music traditions, Hindustani (North Indian) and Carnatic (South Indian). The link is focused on the former. I'd like to add some (general, not just rhythmic) notes on the latter.
1. Both derive from the Sāmaveda, and took their modern forms beginning from the 15th century CE. What would eventually become Hindustani music took on Persian and Arabic influences, whereas Carnatic music—as the name suggests—is mostly limited to South India and therefore relatively insulated from the cultural changes in the North, and is considered closer to ancient Indian music.
2. Perhaps the most important difference between Indian and Western classical music is that the former is relative, not absolute. The main artiste picks a comfortable śruti, or tonic: males typically choose B to D, solo instrumentalists typically tune their instruments to D - F, and female artistes choose F# to A (and an octave higher). This is just a rule of thumb; some instrumentalists (flautists, for instance) prefer C. Note that I refer to only the note; the precise frequency/octave is irrelevant insofar as defining śruti is concerned. Once the main artiste has selected their śruti, all other accompanying instruments are tuned to the same. This is why ICM notation is solfège-based, staff notation does not work for ICM, and why Indian classical musicians have a taṃbūrā (could be electronic, too) on stage.
3. The ICM solfège is called swara. There are seven of these, called sa, ri, ga, ma, pa, dha, ni, just like in the West (do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti). Similarly, they expand to twelve when accounting for semitones.
4. The basic melodic framework for ICM is the rāga; loosely put, this defines a certain scale that a composition, or parts of a composition, or some improvisation is set to. rāgas also define the gamakas, or ornaments for their scales; this is fundamental to ICM. There exist notationally equal scales with and without gamaka, but they are considered completely different rāgas.
5. There are loose analogues between ICM rāgas and Western modes. For instance, the Ionian mode is equivalent to Śankarābharaṇaṃ in Carnatic music, or Bilāval in Hindustani music.
6. Carnatic music rāga classification has an interesting tree structure. There are 72 'roots', called mēḷakartā, which have a complete scale of 7 notes ascending, and 7 notes descending. Delete some notes, or reorder them, or introduce one or more notes from another scale, and you get a veritable sea of janya rāgas.
7. Carnatic music has a few classifications for its rhythmic patterns. The suladi sapta tāla system is most commonly taught to beginners. In this, there are three angas (or parts): laghu, dhrutam, and anudhrutam. laghus can have 3, 4, 5, 7, or 9 beats (or akṣara), called jātis. There are seven arrangements (ergo, sapta) of angas under this system, and with five jātis, there emerge 35 talas with different akṣara sums for each. The typical 8-akṣara rhythm (again, similar to Western music) is called ādi tāla, or catusra jāti triputa talā.
Some exemplary Carnatic music:
Vocal: Ramakrishnan Murthy, ānanda naṭana prakāśam, Muttusvāmi Dīkṣitar, Kēdāram, Misra Cāpu tāla: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eu-tFbGpoTQ
Violin solo: Charumathi Raghuraman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lESyDHH_E7Q
Vīṇā solo: Ramana Balachandran: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgW3j9OVpJo
Flute solo: J.B. Sruthi Sagar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6InFwzX8kk
A couple more things I'd like to add - please correct me if I'm wrong (I'm a listener, not a practitioner).
One important thing about rāgas that differentiates them from western modes is that they typically come with notions of note ordering. That is, when playing an ascending melody, you may be encouraged to pick different notes than for a descending one. There are a couple of western modes that work in a similar way, but typically only for a single note, and these modes are not widely used.
Another distinction is that while rāgas are like western modes in that they are culturally identified with emotional states, in ICM the emotional states are generally thought of as temporal (time of day, time of year). One does not think of a particular rāga as "sad" or "happy", but rather (for example) associated with sunrise, or twilight, or the deepest part of winter.
Finally, it is important to note that harmony plays very little role in ICM, which has instead developed its ideas regarding melody to a degree substantially beyond western classical music (which has focused a great deal of effort on advancing the concepts and use of harmony). Listening to ICM live with an experienced audience, you may hear gasps as the lead performer swoops up and down melodic lines, in ways that you would never encounter in a western context. For ICM listeners, the choice to play three particular notes one after the other can be a source of intense joy (or, occasionally, intense irritation).
I am hope I am writing about these aspects correctly.
> you may be encouraged to pick different notes than for a descending one
Hmm, this is not entirely true. There are absolutely symmetric rāgas, and some of these are extremely popular: I mentioned Śankarābharaṇaṃ, but there are several others, like Kalyani (Lydian mode), Tōdi (Phrygian mode), or pentatonic scales like Mohanam, Hamsadhwani, Hindōḷaṃ, etc.
> in ICM the emotional states are generally thought of as temporal
Indeed. One might think minor scales are 'more sad' than major ones, but this doesn't translate well to Indian classical music.
> it is important to note that harmony plays very little role in ICM
Also true. Indian classical music has little theoretical and practical use of 'chords' in the Western sense, except perhaps the drone strings on the vīṇā.
I dont know much about all this, but I am surprised there is nk mention of quarter tones here - western music does not have them, but I hear quarter tone intervals alllll the time in indian music. Yet you indicate that there are the same number of notes in a scale- but it seems indian music has an extra "blue note" or passing tone that we do not have here in the west.
> I am surprised there is nk mention of quarter tones here
There is some debate about 22 śrutis[1][2]. I subscribe to this paragraph from the second link:
> Further, there seems to be no point in trying to interpret these positions in precise mathematical terms. Such measured values do not in anyway contribute to the understanding of music.
In addition to the above, the gamakas I mentioned are a good abstraction over quarter-tones. For most practising musicians, 12 notes + gamakas are enough to describe Indian classical music. I understand Western classical music is a little stricter with its theory, but Indian music is less so, given a stronger aural-oral tradition in India rather than the written word.
Finally, mine was an already-long comment on a Hacker News thread meant to give a rough overview of Carnatic music to a (possibly untrained) Western audience, and not a detailed, thought-out blog post or article about comparative music theory and musicology.
Anandamrita varshini by Maharajapuram Santhanam is a family favourite of ours.
Of the younger generation, the trichur brothers are also very competent musicians.
Ranjani & Gayatri form a very competent duet. Their rendition of the keertanam Ranga Pura Vihara is quite good too!
Highly recommend videos from Anuja Kamat:
What is Raag? => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBtFt3HUkT0
Concept of 'Swara'- Hindustani, Carnatic and Western theory of swara => https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-nUTYRyuqk
(the entire video series has a nice, casual way of explaining things. Grab a coffee and enjoy)
The website linked by OP is really good, simple explanations that are easy to understand. The section about Ragas is also well done.
Is there a similar source for Southern Indian (Carnatic) music?
PS also any good sources for watching performances? This is a YouTube channel that I started following recently https://www.youtube.com/@darbarfestival
> Is there a similar source for Southern Indian (Carnatic) music?
https://www.ragasurabhi.com/ is decent.
> PS also any good sources for watching performances?
- First Edition Arts has similarly high-quality videos: https://www.youtube.com/@FirstEditionArtsChannel
- Madras Music Academy: https://www.youtube.com/@themusicacademymadras/videos
You can follow some of the artistes themselves, such as:
- TM Krishna: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCl-HdkpIxPECiTpxWSaVHqA
- Sanjay Subrahmanyan: https://www.youtube.com/@sanjaysubmusic
- Dr L Subramaniam: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdYNQApXy7MN4ynEzWf1HlQ
- Dr Jayanthi Kumaresh: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCW7OT_-mpbTu3OcS9VwCtUQ
- Sangeethapriya, audio recordings only: https://www.sangeethapriya.org/display_tracks.php
In addition, karnatik.com has a very nice directory of concert music by well known composers, featuring lyrics, raagam and taalam, along with some other information that changes from piece to piece
This is from long ago (1989+), but I read it recently: "A Carnatic Music Primer" by P. Sriram (https://sanskritdocuments.org/english/carnatic.pdf / http://www.ae.iitm.ac.in/~sriram/karpri.pdf)
You might be interested in this youtube channel:
Rishabh Bhowmick https://www.youtube.com/@RishabhB/videos
"How to Listen to Indian Classical Music" is a common subject discussed on that channel
I remember first learning about taal from this Sarah Thawer video. It's a really fun watch
One thing I realized was that different instruments have different capacities to express rhythms. Certain things you play on tabla you just can’t play on Mridangam and vice versa. And so the difference in the instrument itself allows for the taala to manifest in different ways.
Listen to a teental peshkar and compare to an Adi taala thani and it’s just something completely different all together. Or even a North Indian bhajana compared to a keerthana or kriti in Carnatic.
Here's a fascinating film on Dhrupad https://youtu.be/Lye2FSx0F4c
More about Indian classical music here: https://www.parrikar.org
Crafted by Rajat
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